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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone,

I'm assuming everyone has read the new breeding reciprocal by the ABGA to allow unregistered bucks to cover FB does and have showable kids out of the breeding. This is only doe kids, correct?

What does everyone think of it?

I personally see it as a good thing. I know most people, or at least those who are vocal on facebook, don't care for it so let me explain my stance. 1. It would allow wether bucks to be used. These bucks have tremendous levelness and hip structure that is die for as well a degree of muscling that the ABGA could certainly use. They also focus on a higher muscle to fat ratio and may actually keep some of our show does from getting gobby fat. 2. Yes, they are a slower maturing line but is that really a bad thing? In dogs, too fast of a growth rate equates to other health and joint issues. This could help some of those poorer structured animals continue a longer production life. 3. We already do it with FB bucks over unregistered does... so why not the other way? Genetics are basically the same either way. 4. It opens a wider gene pool to select from. Alot of the times line breeding emphasizes bad traits within a line. It can be hard to breed them out by bringing in new, untouched blood you'll be less likely to repeat those negative traits. and 5. With this new thing it will make breeders less likely to sell inferior bucks. I've seen so many saying they won't sell commercial bucks anymore because of this. So in the end it could really help improve the genetics and make people more apt to cull goats that need to be culled.

Ok I'm done. Thoughts? why its good or bad? I wont judge
 

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Just starting out and curious about this as well (we are getting a registered buck ).. do you mean by FB-- full blood? (and registered I am guessing?)....
It makes sense to me, to allow for registration both ways-- 50% is 50% as you said (having one parent registered, shouldnt matter mom or dad)....

Oh I am seeing this is about Boer goats, really new to this, am guessing its different for Minature Dairy goats which is what we have...
 

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I didn't see that change yet, but I think its cool. I was just complaining the other day about "What difference does it make if its a fullblood doe and a % buck, or the other way around? Its no different, you still get the same percentage kids."

I think it's good for a few reasons as well

1) Sound structure can be introduced from bucks that are not fullblood or purebred. I believe this is going to correct a ton of the bad toplines out there, along with slowing the growth rate so their forming skeletons don't break down before they are even breeding age. (Unless they are crossed with dairy lines, then they will grow very fast)

2) Milk production can be added to lines with poor production, equalling does that can raise their kids better, and kids that are healthier

3) This can introduce a LOT more color for the people that only raise colored Boers

4) Vast outcrossing. Even with outcrossing, people can still use superior genetic bucks or does from a different breed.
The downside to this this that I see is loosing some of the type in Boers, they may loose some ear length, and such, but I think it's worth it to have a sound and functional animal.

5) In some areas a non papered buck is all you can find, so if people have fullblood does, they can still work their way up to American status.
 

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Great points Dani.
It is kind of discriminate, to only accept reg bucks over does.
My take on it is the unfair though legal showing of %s, which is already practiced.
I know of someone who wont show her %s because of this.
Take a registered FB doe & put her in with an unregistered FB buck. Voila, FBs shown as %.
 

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Colorful Quality Boers
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In some cases (like you mentioned Dani) with a un-reg wether buck, I think it would be great... But I can also see someone breeding down by getting a % buck who passes on some dairy characteristics like different horns/ears/head on to their entire herd. That's what would worry me. Your buck is an enormous part of your herd, and if somebody get's a % buck and doesn't really know what they are doing, they could mess up what could have been a good thing real quick. If they had gotten a FB/PB buck, they would have a better chance of breeding up and have those Boer characteristics still there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
All very good points! I guess I see more positives than negatives. Most people who are not experienced and haven't researched breeds and such wouldn't know what the ABGA rule changes do anyway. I don't think ear length, horn set or other things will be dramatically impacte d because so many breeders are devoted to the breed staying the same. Its not any worse than those people producing poor structured, light muscled and small framed goats and calling them boers because they have a red head and white body.
 

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Exactly! By the time you're at purebred status, the changes wouldn't be that different than what you already see in PB boers, most of the PB colored bucks have Nubian in their bloodlines (giving them the color, while keeping the nose), and a Nubian IS a dairy breed. And some of the "fullblood" Boers out there do not have the tradtional horns or face. Just because the papers say they are this or that, doesnt exactly mean they are. Some people are terrible and will claim they are what they say they are to make more money.
I've seen a lot of straight faced FB boers, and I seen a lot of boers with questionable horns.

But no matter what way you look at it, a percentage boer is a percentage boer, it doesnt matter if its from the buck or the doe. You can still loose a lot of the boer traits by using a FB buck on a percentage doe, just like you can the other way around.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Just starting out and curious about this as well (we are getting a registered buck ).. do you mean by FB-- full blood? (and registered I am guessing?)....
It makes sense to me, to allow for registration both ways-- 50% is 50% as you said (having one parent registered, shouldnt matter mom or dad)....

Oh I am seeing this is about Boer goats, really new to this, am guessing its different for Minature Dairy goats which is what we have...
Yes this all registered boer stuff. FB is fullblood and registered when I say it. To some it just means full boer and may not be registered.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
But by the time you're at purebred status, the changes wouldn't be that different than what you already see in PB boers, most of the PB colored bucks have Nubian in their bloodlines (giving them the color, while keeping the nose), and a Nubian IS a dairy breed. And some of the "fullblood" Boers out there do not have the tradtional horns or face. Just because the papers say they are this or that, doesnt exactly mean they are. Some people are terrible and will claim they are what they say they are to make more money.
I've seen a lot of straight faced FB boers, and I seen a lot of boers with questionable horns.

But no matter what way you look at it, a percentage boer is a percentage boer, it doesnt matter if its from the buck or the doe. You can still loose a lot of the boer traits by using a FB buck on a percentage doe, just like you can the other way around.
Exactly! I hate seeing "boers" that look dairy. We are producing meat goats first and foremost so let's at least maintain breed standard and produce better goats with each breeding. Improvement is always key and should be the goal of all breeders
 

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Exactly! I hate seeing "boers" that look dairy. We are producing meat goats first and foremost so let's at least maintain breed standard and produce better goats with each breeding. Improvement is always key and should be the goal of all breeders
I agree!

Seems to me like the majority of % bucks out there (= un-registered bucks) are not as nice as the FB/PB bucks... so I'm just worried people are going to use those bucks and drag down the Boer breed standard look much faster than just using a un-reg doe here and there and breeding her to a FB buck...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I dont think that will be the case. So many breeders have said already that if its not registered buck quality or can't be registered then they will be wethering. No more commercial bucks it looks like... at least not from a lot of breeders.
 

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Hey everyone,

I'm assuming everyone has read the new breeding reciprocal by the ABGA to allow unregistered bucks to cover FB does and have showable kids out of the breeding. This is only doe kids, correct?

What does everyone think of it?
Overall I think it's a good thing too- although cynical old me thinks it's ultimately probably a marketing ploy to bring some of the show wether dollars back into the fold.

While I can understand the concerns about an unregistered buck introducing less than ideal genes, I can also see ABGA breeders quite literally breeding themselves into a corner if the gene pool isn't made a little deeper (especially since we all seem to love lining up to breed to the same "IT" buck year after year- how many of you have Smoking Hot Ruger or Luger/Cuger or AK-47 daughters out there? *raises hand*). Look at what happened with the Impressive genes in the quarter horse industry- I don't think it's unreasonable to think something similar could develop with boers.
 

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Did they actually pass it? I thought they were just talking about it. Anyway, it doesn't bother me any. It can already be done the way it is now though, it just takes two generations. Also, it's not just the wether breeding that could benefit. The color people could take advantage too. Take a look at that one buck Bon Joli has, he is gorgeous, but is not properly ABGA registered.

Dani, Have you looked at the Able Acres website lately and looked at those new bucks? What do you think of HBS Absolute? Is there not *any* FB bucks that are top notch wether sires? Or capable of being? They all came from Africa. I understand the Ibex influence, but I don't think the wether bucks selling for big money are a very high percent Ibex. It looks to me like AABG is trying "to do both".
 

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The wether producers do not need the ABGA to track their lines. The ABGA needs the wether producers for revenue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Did they actually pass it? I thought they were just talking about it. Anyway, it doesn't bother me any. It can already be done the way it is now though, it just takes two generations. Also, it's not just the wether breeding that could benefit. The color people could take advantage too. Take a look at that one buck Bon Joli has, he is gorgeous, but is not properly ABGA registered.

Dani, Have you looked at the Able Acres website lately and looked at those new bucks? What do you think of HBS Absolute? Is there not *any* FB bucks that are top notch wether sires? Or capable of being? They all came from Africa. I understand the Ibex influence, but I don't think the wether bucks selling for big money are a very high percent Ibex. It looks to me like AABG is trying "to do both".
The fullblood sires can certainly bting a lot to the table for wethers. The issues comes to holding a wether at 85lbs for 6 or 7 months. The majority of fullblood sires are bred to continue a fast growth rate. I personally love that buck... he's beautiful and i would certainly consider him.

I used a fullblood over a wether/commercial doe to increase growth rate but this particular buck is also bery flashy and pretty. He produced a national champion wether already so yeah they'll work if paired right and growth rate is taken into consideration as well as when you want them ready.

I don't know if it has been passed. I'm not a member yet.. waiting until january :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I like outcrosses myself. Here is a buckling Kevin Mock owns 1/2 interest in.
Love this buck! I want to see muscle definition like this in all of our breeding stock. We need it to keep boers as meat animals
 

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It spooks me a bit, to go that route, with a non registered buck to registered Doe.
I agree, that the impact of a buck is more than the Doe.
Lucky for me, I only have FB registered boer and do not have to worry about it, but, I for one do not agree. ;)
 
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