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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
He looks high percentage to FB Boer to me. Not saying he doesn't look different from the ABGA bucks at Nationals. I think we should keep in mind if it's true that papers don't make the goat, they don't condemn the goat either. Ha.
Very true on the papers! I can see this buck having some other influence but since papers don't matter we'll never know. I do agree that is very % boer at the least
 

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Of course he is a very high precentage boer with most likely a little ibex X nubian mixed in. Through very selective breeding are animals like this produced. If his family tree was available, I am suspect there are some ABGA animals in it or could be #'ed.

My question is if I breed to something like this and then have % does that are eligible for the ABGA % doe class what have I gained? I suspect nothing and all I have is a doe that is not worth much either way. I haven't seen hardly any wether maker does or true % does, that are going to be do much against the so called % doe class. And we all know the vast majority of the "% does" are really 100% boer, the ones that win anyways.

This move to bring in more paper for the ABGA I think may lead to them being the solo game in town.
 

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Through very selective breeding are animals like this produced. If his family tree was available, I am suspect there are some ABGA animals in it or could be #'ed.
My question is if I breed to something like this and then have % does that are eligible for the ABGA % doe class what have I gained? I suspect nothing and all I have is a doe that is not worth much either way. I haven't seen hardly any wether maker does or true % does, that are going to be do much against the so called % doe class. And we all know the vast majority of the "% does" are really 100% boer, the ones that win anyways. .
I understand the very selective breeding thing, but we all have the ability to do that. It takes time of course, but every breeder started somewhere. I think I disagree with you somewhat in that I believe, for instance, a buck like the one in the picture could add some things to someone's Program, whatever that is. Hypothetically at this point, I'm considering selecting a few of my slower growing, yet realistically similar to the "wether does" I saw in the videos you sent a month ago and breeding them to wether style bucks. Theoretically, I think I could be somewhat close in two generations of breeding to such bucks. Papered, not papered, whatever. That's not the point. Though there is some security if you can paper them. I'm not talking about trying to build a better ABGA breeding stock goat entirely. I'd like to be able to sell wethers that can win any show they go to up here in the NW. With that said, people are already incorporating some of those wether genetics into their ABGA show program and winning. That is if Schaffer and RAFF etc. are considered wether breeding.... If you know what I mean. Sorry about the book. :p
 

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Joe Teel's son Noah has been using some of his ABGA bucks over 900 does and getting some results. Which is the reverse of what this is about, but in my opinion I would use a good buck like this little one over high quality breed does. The problem you might get in is the shoulders of the breed stock does and wether maker does is pretty different.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Joe Teel's son Noah has been using some of his ABGA bucks over 900 does and getting some results. Which is the reverse of what this is about, but in my opinion I would use a good buck like this little one over high quality breed does. The problem you might get in is the shoulders of the breed stock does and wether maker does is pretty different.
I personally prefer wether stock shoulders. I see too many show does with big loose shoulders. I have one of those does actually and it drives me crazy. I love the Teels goats... they're a little different, just enough to really stand out, but still conform to the type.

I have a double bred Tattoo (her sire is Texas Ink which is one of Glen Martins bucks) granddaughter that is bred to a Ripper son for February kids. Her dam was a commercial doe with very much unknown origins (appeared boer but who really knows!). We'll see what she has!
 

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Joe Teel's son Noah has been using some of his ABGA bucks over 900 does and getting some results. Which is the reverse of what this is about, but in my opinion I would use a good buck like this little one over high quality breed does. The problem you might get in is the shoulders of the breed stock does and wether maker does is pretty different.
Nathan Duncan, (Larry probably in reality), has bred that HBS Absolute to some of their PDF Full Proof does and the people that have bought them are winning at ABGA shows. These are FBs. But again, I'm not trying to say the wether breeding is going to become the key to winning at an ABGA show. I'm suggesting it as proof that a good goat is a good goat and you can add things to your herd by using bucks displaying characteristics you want to improve on. *IF* I had a friend who bought that buck in the picture (I'm assuming he doesn't have ABGA papers) and offered me the chance to breed a couple of does to him at a reasonable price, I would breed one doe to him this year and two or three next year with the hope it might jump start me in the wether business. The progress I've seen using AI and Other breeders' best bucks has been very encouraging with my show goats. I see no reason to believe you couldn't make similar progress in the wether game.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I agree, a good goat is a good goat regardless of paperd or no papers. The general design of a meat goat should always be about the same with few variations. Wide based, heavy muscled, sound structured and enough volume to carry babies and be easy fleshing should always be priorities no matter what type of meat goat you are breeding.
 

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You bet, I agree. :) Boer farms are breeding these goats for the same purpose, whether we are making wethers or producing show stock, these are meat goats and that's what we are all breeding for (whether we eat them or not!)
 

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Personally, I think that if it's ok for a registered buck to breed a grade doe and have the doe kids be registered (recorded) then it should be the oposite also. Registered is registered, whether it be doe or buck. Whats good for one should be good for the other. I feel it's major discrimination to have it one way and not the other. Genetics are genetics, no matter the sex.
 

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Personally, I think that if it's ok for a registered buck to breed a grade doe and have the doe kids be registered (recorded) then it should be the oposite also. Registered is registered, whether it be doe or buck. Whats good for one should be good for the other. I feel it's major discrimination to have it one way and not the other. Genetics are genetics, no matter the sex.
I disagree, it is not a matter of discrimination, it is that the buck throws most of the influence on the kids. Some bucks that are bred up, may show more of nubian or whatever breed characteristics, in which, they throw dominance in, into the offspring. It is a matter of boer breed character, not discrimination. There may be bad outcomes and there may be good, however, it isn't something to be modified, when the system is working the way it is. We have already tinkered to much with bringing in the new style boer and found issues with them. ;)
 

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I wish ABGA would would let you breed up to fullblood. I don't like that a goat can't get higher than 99%. I mean if you breed a fullblood to one that's 99% why shouldn't the kids be registered fullblood?
 

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Genetics are genetics, no matter the sex.
Not true. You are looking at it strictly as a 50/50 crossover ratio when it is not the case. Lots of things are sex linked, male/female dominant or downright mathematically improbable.

Not to mention that a buck can influence WAY more kids genetically in a lifetime than a doe ever will, even in one kidding season.

That is the only thing I will say on this issue.
 

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I wish ABGA would would let you breed up to fullblood. I don't like that a goat can't get higher than 99%. I mean if you breed a fullblood to one that's 99% why shouldn't the kids be registered fullblood?
I had a doe who was 99.63% Boer... that's what her papers said with the USBGA ! She has since moved on, but made me laugh!
 

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I have some FB and % unreg does out of a USBGA buck I no longer have. What good does it do me to register them as % ABGA does? Both my bucks now are FB ABGA registered. So these does offspring will ABGA % does even though in reality most are FB.
 

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I wish ABGA would would let you breed up to fullblood. I don't like that a goat can't get higher than 99%. I mean if you breed a fullblood to one that's 99% why shouldn't the kids be registered fullblood?
With the genetics starting out with another breed of goat, it is impossible to make them FB boer. A high percentage( Purebred) can never be FB boer. ;)
 
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