New Member, of course with a problem!

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by elchivito, Apr 18, 2010.

  1. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    Hello to all. I've enjoyed reading the threads here for some time. First, introductions:
    My family and I have been raising Toggenburgs for about 6 years. We show a bit at ADGA shows and our son is in 4H. Two years ago we got interested in Mini Milkers and bred one of our best yearling does to a purebred Nigie. She gave us two beautiful does. As first generation registered Mini Toggs, we couldn't breed them their first season as we couldn't locate a first gen buck. I finally found a nice looking blue eyed boy and bought him so we could breed this past fall.
    Now comes the problem. One of our girls had twins, and the other kidded FIVE, all alive and relatively healthy although tiny. That was last Sunday, the 11th. On monday she fell ill with a 106.5 fever. The vet came out, and gave her IV banamine and started her on Baytril and Naxcel injections daily. He suspects metritis or endometriosis possibly and maybe a tear in her uterus, although he looked at her with ultrasound and didn't see anything unusual like a dead 6th kid or anything.
    She has been up and downhill all week since. Her fever will drop to 103 occaisionally at night and she will feel better and talk to her babies (we lost one, I think she layed down on her, a doe of course). The babies are on bottles and doing well as her udder is very congested and she has very little milk. I've left them with her as they are too tiny to put in with our other babies/moms, tho they are the same age. We had 12 born in total saturday and sunday.
    I have continued with the injections, and added a couple of days worth of Bovi-Sera serum antibodies, which my vet considers voodoo, and am also giving her daily fortified B complex shots. I pretty much have to hand feed her to ensure she eats and drinks anything. Not interested in the hay or grain, I'm cutting her bamboo and branches off her favorite trees. Today she ate some-a little-sweet feed (which we usually don't use, normally our milkers get dry COB, too hard to control weight with the sweeet stuff) And I'm scouring the property for Mesquite Beans left over from last summer, which she loves. I'm mixing molasses with a quart of water and a full dose of Goat Nutridrench twice a day and she's drinking that. She seems to be in pain, and when her temp spikes it looks like she's on her way down. Very scary. She has had one more light dose of banamine a couple of days ago, but our vet is very leery of it, saying we're running a serious risk of a rumen ulcer. I don't think he acturally gave her much of a dose, as I saw not temporary improvement as I almost always do with banamine. My feeling is she needs to get some temporary pain relief and fever reduction so she'll feel like eating enough calories to aid her recovery. She's pretty thin, and in her shows she's always judged to be "over conditioned".
    Any opinions here? Her temp has trended down a bit, not going over 105 for a couple of days, but she's miserable. The vet says it might help to change her Baytril to Oxytetracycline. I think he's stumped and I know like many vets he's got that "it's just a goat" attitude. I'm at my wit's end but not ready to give up. Your help is appreciated.

    profe in Arizona
     
  2. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    Since your vet doesn't want to give her banamine and she still have a fever, you could give her a Motrin pill crushed and drenched or even the liquid type for children. Dose according to the weight on the bottle.
     

  3. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    I may try that. I have my own Banamine supply and could of course give it to her myself.
     
  4. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I would put her on banamine 1cc per 100lbs for 5 days (thats what my vet said for my young kid and it didnt kill him).

    how many days has she been on the Baytril? I have never used it before. Can you vet get excenel? its expensive but does work real well. Thats 1cc per 20-30lbs for at least 5 days.
     
  5. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    I know you said the vet did an US, but is there any possibility of a retained placenta? Just my two, totally inexperienced, cents.

    I don't know if a placenta would show up easily on an US and if the vet isn't experienced with goats s/he may not know what is normal.
     
  6. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    I'm leaning towards more Banamine. Excenel is the same drug as Naxcel, which she's getting. I'm usually a big fan of it, but this is taking an incredibly long time to resolve. Longest week I've spent in a long time. Baytril is fairly new and real effective for gram positive bacteria, Naxcel works for gram positive and negative, so theoretiically all our bases are covered. Chlamydia is the only thing not well covered, and the tetracycline would supposedly handle that. I'm going to decide tomorrow whether to discontinue the Baytril and start the Oxytet. Judging from the amount of afterbirth she put out, I don't think a retained placenta is the problem. She does seem to have occasional contraction-like pains though, but I know that contractions continue for quite a while to effect cleanout and a healthy goat doesn't show any signs of them, so maybe they're just bothering her more because she's week. She's drinking more water today than ever, but with our afternoon heat her temp's back up to 105. It's 87 outside although she's in the shade of the barn.
     
  7. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    You mentioned ...you weren't getting much milk out....?

    what do you get out?
    is there any clumps...blood ...strings in it? Does it not look right?
    Is her udder ..hot to the touch?
    Mastitis creates fever ...and if she isn't milked out...or treated...to get it out... the bacteria is still in there and may be prolonging her from getting well.... :hug:
     
  8. FunnyRiverFarm

    FunnyRiverFarm New Member

    Sep 13, 2008
    Hudson, MI
    I've been told that Baytril does not work well for goats...I think you are right to try something else.
     
  9. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Even if the Baytril normally works for you, its not in this situation. So the only thing I can suggest is to change antibiotics, and keep doing what you are doing.

    I'm sorry you are having such a battle and praying she pulls through for you.
     
  10. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    Her udder's not hot, at least not any hotter than the rest of her. Not tender, milk looks normal, no flakes or blood, just really congested. When her fever goes down she still lets her little ones nurse which I feel is good for the udder. I've been massaging it with peppermint oil, which has worked in the past. I'm calling the vet about an antibiotic change tonight. She had baytril this morning so will start whatever is new tomorrow. She ate more today than past days with encouragement, and although her fever peaked at 105.2 it didn't stay there long. It's down to 104.5 now in the late afternoon.
     
  11. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    Well, I changed her to Bio-Mycin along with Naxcel and dropped the Baytril. Gave her a banamine shot on my own last night...now I'll have to confess to the vet when he comes by this morning. Her temp is 101.5 and she has been eating and chewing cud and sleeping like a baby all night. I even noticed her little ones all have clean butts this morning, so she did some mommy work sometime in the night.
    I suppose her temp will come back up when the banamine wears off, but it's been over 12 hours since she got it, so maybe the new antibiotic is kicking in too. I'm never sure how long banamine works and guess it varies from goat to goat. Time will tell. At least she's been able to eat and out of pain for a night.
     
  12. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    Are you giving her any Probiotic? Even yogurt would be good. She needs to keep the good bacteria in her rumen going. With all the medications she is getting, it is killing off the bacteria.

    Something else I have red is use Slippery Elm. Boil it in water for like 20 minutes, and drench her with it. It will help purify the blood and will also help her with any stomach pain. It is really good if you use sage with it and boil them together but the sage will dry her up.
     
  13. DebMc

    DebMc Member

    845
    Dec 10, 2009
    I'm in AZ, too, and have twin Mini Silky doelings that suddenly fell ill last week with some mystery infection, possibly a bacterial pneumonia, and Bio-Mycin cleared it up lickety split. Their common symptoms were lethargy and fever. Both ran very high temps (106.3- 107.7). The first day I'd spend 30 minutes dousing them in the tub to get the fever down to 103 only to have it spike right back up after taking them out. The one that fell ill first started a green nasal discharge and got the rattles the day after I started her on Bio-Mycin. So I lowered the doseage and started administering it daily and that apparently did the trick. Today's the last day of a 5-day course of Bio-Mycin and they're both pretty much back to normal.

    I've also been giving them Co-Rid (just in case) and Probios daily along w/a homemade electrolyte drink w/B-Complex to keep them hydrated.

    I hope the Bio-Mycin does the trick and your mama goat has a full and expeditious recovery.

    Deb Mc
     
  14. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    Thanks. It's almost 1 p.m., hot and her temp seems to be holding at 102.6. She's very tired, but doesn't seem to be having the pain she was having yesterday, and is eating pretty well, some beet pulp, alfalfa pellets and is eating hay, albeit a little at a time. I gave her 2 cc of BioMycin last night and another two this morning for a kick start. Will continue it daily in the a.m. I think the banamine effects must have worn off by now, she got it at 6 last night.
     
  15. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    Baytril does NOT work on goats... your best move there was definitely switching to the Bio mycin... Naxcel is supposed to work really well though too.... hopefully your girl has a full recovery soon. Poor thing what a rough time! :(
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Biomycin is 1cc per 20lbs so unless she is a tiny doe I would be giving her more like 3 ccs
     
  17. DebMc

    DebMc Member

    845
    Dec 10, 2009
    I read 1.5 cc, period, for goats *if* given daily, as opposed to the dose noted above every 48 or 72 hours. That's what I gave my girls and they weigh about 40 lbs, I'd say.

    Deb Mc
     
  18. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    Well, her temp came up a little last night but not much. 103. It's 101.5 this morning and she ate quite a bit last night once her babies quit bugging her and went to sleep. She is SO tired and a little wobbly when she gets up, although yesterday I was cleaning her pen and on her own she saw the open gate and wandered out to lay in the sun. I guess she's just been through the mill running those high temps for a solid week and needs time to get her strength back. She has started her post kidding bleed out, which looks normal though there's quite a bit of it. I guess having 5 babies has a lot to do with that. Going to get her up for a back end wash, udder massage and general care in bit. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. I know it's not reasonable to expect her to instantly bounce back after what she's been through, but I wouldn't mind if she did! She's going to stay on Naxcel and Bio Mycin all this week.

    Edit to add: Count me among those who say Baytril doesn't work in goats. It's so disheartening to think we could have avoided this whole horrible week if we'd started Bio and Naxcel instead.
     
  19. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    tried the every other day dosing -- that never works. But I always do 1cc per 20lbs dispite the fact that I give it every day and thats the only way I have found it to actually work. My experience only
     
  20. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    635
    Apr 18, 2010
    I'm giving her 2ml per day per vet instructions and the same dose of Naxcel. She weighs about 65-70lbs. Seems to be working. I'm going to continue both for the rest of the week at least. She's eating well but doesn't like getting up. I think she hurts or is weak from the high fever and near lack of nutrition for a week. I've heard from human women that endometriosis is very painful, so maybe the same is true with goats...Started her post kid discharge and it seems like there's a lot of it, but then she's not dropping it standing up like a healthy doe and is smearing it all over herself. It's not flowing, so I don't think it's hemmorage. She kidded 5 babies so I'd expect to see some extra fluid. Vet said her ultra sound showed some fluid so I expect it's getting kicked out now. I think we're in rehab mode now. She needs to regain her strength. Eating well, she decided today she'd like some grain and started cleaning baby butts on a regular basis, fretting about them when I kicked them out of her pen to clean her up and take her temp. I remain cautiously optimistic.