Newbie with long question, is my pygmy pregnant? (Pics)

Discussion in 'Kidding Koral' started by Janne, Aug 18, 2009.

  1. Janne

    Janne New Member

    38
    Aug 17, 2009
    Kentucky
    I am very, very new at goats. I try really hard, but mistakes happen... and a lot of them happened at once. :( I post this with great hesitancy because a lot of my mistakes were apparently common knowledge. I've lurked here a while, so I don't think you guys will form a lynch mob and come after me... right?

    My only pygmy doe (Zoe) kidded back in mid-March. This--for whatever reason--made my only buck (Frank) totally lose his mind. Keeping him away from Zoe and the new kid was like trying to move a mountain with a soup spoon. Sometime in April, Frank broke loose. While I didn't actually see the deed, I went ahead and figured up an estimated due date for the first week of September, or late August.

    Since I didn't actually see the deed, I didn't worry too much about it, but tried even harder to keep Frank away from Zoe. Sure as the world, he got out again in May. Again, I didn't actually see anything happen, buuuuuut... Another EDD for early October, just in case nothing happened the first time.

    Yesterday, I learned that they "make medicine to fix that," which is to say a medicine to abort the unborn kids. I wish I'd known this back in April/May.

    So in the meantime, life goes on. I tried getting Zoe to wean her kid, but I swear, pygmy goats are the WORST for breaking loose! If he didn't break free to get to her, she would get to him. Nothing short of keeping one or the other being four walls and a roof would keep them apart. In short, she's had no lactation rest (and barely that) until the last couple of weeks... and I had no idea it was supposed to be for two months.

    Can you imagine the guilt I'm feeling right about now? I'm expecting Pygmy Social Services to stop by any day now.

    Then a week ago, Zoe began acting weird, like she did before giving birth to her kid in March. She became very, very vocal. She didn't want to be touched or be approached by anyone, not me or her herdmates. She would go and stand in her pen, butting any goat who dared to follow. Only when her gate was latched and secured would she return to her sweet self.

    Over the last week, I've kept a close eye on her. Her vulva has gradually gotten pinker and more swollen every day. She refuses to be with the rest of the herd and prefers the shelter of the private stall. Sometimes she'll go out for an hour, but no longer. Even then, she's hostile towards the wethers and any other animal smaller than her. She's fine when she's in her pen, though.

    Yesterday morning, I noticed how HUGE she looked. She looked like she did the week before she freshened back in March.

    Today... has been weird. She's not quite as pink. She's not quite as swollen. Her belly is no longer wide... but I didn't think to check to see if it's "dropped." (Mercy, now I'm ready to dash outside and check on her!) She wanted to be out for several hours today and seemed to be okay with being around the wethers. When I walked her by the boys' pen, Frank wanted to sniff at her, but Zoe showed no interest at all in him, unlike when she's in season/heat, when she's all over him.

    Her milk bag is still tiny, but before she kidded in March, it was tiny and didn't fill until the day she kidded, maybe not until shortly after (she's freshened twice in her life). I haven't seen a discharge at all during the last week. I've checked her pen, just in case, and there are no birthing fluids or anything other than what's usually there. She hasn't shown signs of being in season/heat since spring.

    Other than everything I've mentioned above, she's otherwise as healthy as she's ever been in her life. Everything is perfectly normal, physically speaking, from a non-vet standpoint.

    Okay, if you've made it this far, I commend you. If you've made it this far and still feel like answering, many happy goat blessings upon you. I only ask you go a little further and look at these pics and tell me what you think.

    [​IMG]

    Usually, she's black where she's pink. Yesterday, she was REALLY bright pink.

    [​IMG]

    Another backside shot... I really can't tell you much about her milk bag other than her kid was still trying to nurse her 2 weeks ago and wasn't having any trouble. She was also this small before she freshened back in March. (Btw, it's not as late as it looks outside. It was only 8 pm EST)

    [​IMG]

    Yesterday, she was MUCH broader than this first thing in the morning. By evening, she was practically waddling. I don't know what on earth happened. As soon as I post this, I'm going outside to check on her.

    Thoughts? Advice? Thump on the head?


    Edited to add: I can't tell as she's dropped. She's just... I dunno. Like a goat. :scratch: Still pink and swollen, but otherwise fine. I give up. She isn't kidding tonight, so I'm going on to bed. :sigh:
     
  2. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    :hug: It's ok...we all start somewhere. I really don't think it's a big deal. :hug:

    She looks possibly bred, but i'd say she's got a little ways to go. Have you tried feeling for kids? If you pull up pretty hard right in front of her udder you might be able to fee kids...and try pushing on HER right side to see if you feel anything.
     

  3. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    Please don't beat yourself up about it. It's not like you didn't try your best to keep them separated. :hug: I have had it happen before too. The biggest issue with having her bred back so quickly is to keep her in condition. Do you feed grain? If not, she could probably use some. I would probably give some alfalfa pellets too - any changes, make gradually, so as not to upset her tummy. She looks a little on the thin side to me, but hard to tell with her long hair.

    She does look *possibly* bred but like Kylee said, looks to have a ways to go. But that can change really quick. One of our Pygmies looked perfectly normal, we went on a walk, gone maybe an hour or so, came back and she had both kids,mostly dry and nursing. :)
     
  4. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Oh hunny - accidents happen and there is no reason to feel as though we would "get ya" for it :wink: No one is perfect, things happen, and I think I can say this for most of the regulars here - we will do what we can to help you through this with a happy ending :thumb:

    To me, she looks pregnant, however, I would guess the later date. As mentioned - start palpating right in front of her udder along with her right side - and also check her ligaments at the base of the tail - it should feel like 2 pencils. These will loosen, drop low, and then disappear right before kidding. (Let me know if you need a link on how to find them)

    The best thing I can say for a back to back pregnancy is make sure she is on a great quality alfalfa hay and grain her as her body is going to need the extra nourishment (I had a pygmy do the same thing last year - buck got on the manure pile ON THE ROOF broke through and jumped down 7 feet to get to her.... persistant little bugger!)

    Take care - and know that we are here to help you :hug:
     
  5. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    Janne,

    First of all, I want to welcome you the TGS. :wave: I am not sure if I welcomed you or not.

    Second of all, PLEASE do not feel and I promise you we will not beat you up for anything. (we really are not like some of the other sites out there) We would all be hypocrite if we did because we all have been new and we all learn from everyone and our mistakes. SO please do not feel bad and PLEASE ask questions no matter how dumb you might think they are because we all have had to ask them, plus I promise you someone will learn from all the questions asked.

    I would like to say that your doe Zoe is a very nice looking doe. I would say that she looks to be in good condition and she will be having at least one beautiful baby. If you can, feel down her back and see if you can feel her back bone pretty good or if it feels like she has some meat on her. (It looks like she is in good conditions but feeling is the way to really tell).

    I would say yes she is pregnant but a due date? I would say you have a bit like the other have said.

    Give her a little grain, not much because you do not know when she is due, so you do not want the baby to get to large but you want to give her some grain to help her and the baby. I would also offer a tums every day. They have lots of calcium in them and she will need it as the baby nursing has depleted a lot and now the new baby is taking it also.

    Again, do not beat yourself up, we all have had accidents if you have a buck on your property.

    The medication you were talking about is Lutylice. It aborts the baby. It has to be given 7-10 days from the breeding. Lots of people are totally against it, and other sure it. I normally have a bottle on hand but I am out right now.
     
  6. Janne

    Janne New Member

    38
    Aug 17, 2009
    Kentucky
    Thank you all for the reassurance. It really means a lot to me. I don't know any local goat owners, and I've witnessed a few new goat owners online receive a pretty terrible bashing for their mistakes. So I breathed a huge sigh of relief when I read all your wonderful replies.

    I tried checking Zoe's belly, but she wasn't very happy about it. I couldn't really feel anything underneath because she was squirming about so much. I'll try again here in a bit with an offering of a branch of her favorite maple.

    Since I've got such a small herd, I've been able to get my goats some of the "good hay" from the local feed store. It's alfalfa and sweet grass that smells amazing. Plus I like dealing with the people at that store better than any other. I know they won't rip me off or sell me unfit hay or straw.

    Zoe's been getting her grain, but lately I've rather slacked off on it because I wasn't sure when she'd kid. Her last kid was one good-sized single, and I'd read you were supposed to lay off the grain in the final week or so of the pregnancy. Plus I found out since the kidding that a lot of our grass is fescue, which causes large single births. I try to keep her out of the grass and on the hillside with the forage, but you know how goats are.

    Her ligaments still feel pretty normal. When she kidded before, I felt the "jelly butt," as one online goat owner put it (she helped me through the kidding). Zoe is still pretty firm in the back. I can feel her spine, but it's not protruding or anything. She's always been a pretty lean goat. One of her kids from her first kidding is the same way. No matter how much they eat, they're always skinny compared to the other goats. Both of them have clean bills of health from the vet, too. :)

    I completely understand what capriola-nd was saying about not knowing when a pygmy will kid. When Zoe kidded back in March, she showed none of the physical signs all day of being ready to kid. I went inside, cooked dinner, ate dinner, and when I came back outside, there was an extra goat! I hung around for cleanup, the afterbirth, and all that, but I completely missed the actual birth of the kid.

    Wow, I think I've written a small book here. Thank you all again for the help! I'll keep watching her and keeping a close eye on any changes.
     
  7. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    yah backing off a bit later in pregnancy is good for pygmy goats but I would still give her a couple handfuls a feeding just so she has it because you dont know when she is due.
     
  8. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    My goodness, never should you feel as though you'd be attacked for something you had no power to control! Bucks can be very persistant, as can some does....I myself had an accidental breeding with Angel when she had her first heat at 4 months old...she delivered a very healthy doeling when she was just 9 months old!

    Zoe likely has Nigerian Dwarf in her blood somewhere back in her parentage, which would explain her lean build, If Frank did get to her, she does look to have a ways to go....but even those lean girls will get deeper in the belly as opposed to wide. My little ND/Pygmy cross isn't wide and stout at all...she is lean and I truly thot she would have a single when she kidded in March...but surprise, her deep belly was holding twin boys! If Zoe feels good to you, not bony and not fat then back off her grain by 1/4 cup and give her a tums daily along with some alfalfa pellets if you can get them. And, if possible, take her kid away so that she dries up....he's plenty old enough to be without his mom :wink:
     
  9. Janne

    Janne New Member

    38
    Aug 17, 2009
    Kentucky
    If she's part ND, that sure would explain why she never really fit the profile of most pygmy goats I've seen! Jack and Jesse (wethers) are pretty much textbook pygmy goats with their markings.

    I finally got to feel the underside of her belly in front of her milk bag. I'm not sure what I felt, but I felt something. Kind of like when you feel a pregnant human's belly and you feel the baby shift positions, and it's a really weird sensation to the hand. Not a kick, just movement. It was something like that. Or maybe it was just her digesting something.

    Someone needs to develop a goat home pregnancy test.
     
  10. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Sorry that there is not a home one - but you can draw blood and send to biotracking - that is what I do with my girls!
     
  11. Janne

    Janne New Member

    38
    Aug 17, 2009
    Kentucky
    Do you do that through your vet? I've never asked him about it, bit it's something I want to look into.
     
  12. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    If you can get the vet to draw blood on her, you can ship it to http://www.biotracking.com/ they can do pregnancy tests for a small fee.
     
  13. Janne

    Janne New Member

    38
    Aug 17, 2009
    Kentucky
    I've got something of an update. I think she might be kidding! But... I could be wrong. Maybe Zoe is just acting weird.

    I let the goats out and sure as the world, exactly one hour later, Zoe began yelling. This time, she was laying by the back door, yelling super loud. I came outside, checked on her. She immediately stopped yelling and just looked up at me. She appeared fine overall, so I went back inside. I was eating and I thought I'd put her up when I was done.

    No sooner had the door closed, she started yelling again. It was louder and more urgent, so I came back outside. Again, she stopped. I wanted to check her girly bits, so I went to go get a branch of pine (she loves pine) to occupy her. Zoe then did something really weird... she followed me! She is not a follower unless there's food involved, and there was no way she knew I was about to get some. I'd stop, she'd stop and give me licks and nuzzles, leaning against my leg.

    Zoe is a sweet goat, but this was too sweet. I went on up the hill, got her some pine, and examined her. She's still swollen, still pink, and this time she's got some fluid on her vulva (I couldn't tell what color, white-ish maybe? Clear?). I won't say it's dripping, but it's wet and some of it was on the tip end of it. She wasn't in the grass, and the rest of her body was dry as a bone.

    I decided to err on the side of caution and went ahead and cleaned her private stall out. It took me about an hour to scrub it down (I'm a touch OCD) and dry it out. When I went to get Zoe, she was very hostile. She even shook her horns at me a little when I reached to pat her on the neck like I always do. VERY weird!!! An hour before, she was all over me with affection. Now I couldn't come near her.

    I got her on a leash and took her to the private stall. She half-dragged me to get to it. Even when she was in it, though, she was still really upset and didn't want me to touch her. When two wethers followed her in, she butted them out. I gave her more pine branches and tried to check her again, but she wouldn't have it. Still pink, still swollen, still has the fluid on her vulva.

    She wouldn't let me check her ligaments. I got a quick feel and they felt soft, unlike yesterday. But again, it was just a quick feel.

    Zoe is pawing at her fresh straw a lot, which could mean something, or maybe it's just where it's fresh. She's also looking behind her a lot, like she's got a stalker (I know that's not what she's looking for, but it made me giggle). I've read these are also signs to watch for.

    I'll be checking in on her every so often. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe she's just having a really bad day or something, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. As soon as my bf gets home from work, one of us will run out for last-second supplies. Even if I am wrong about this, at least we'll have them on hand, right?

    Ugh... I need something deep-fried and smothered in chocolate...
     
  14. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    She could be in heat.....which would be a good thing since you really didn't want her bred at this time.

    IF she is about to kid, check her ligaments, she'll feel all loose, then go to mush as she progresses. Good to have her by herself just in case and you can check on her, her backside though does not look like a doe's in the end of pregnancy, usually they are swollen the wholeway to the tip of the tail, the vulva is long and poofed too.....the discharge you see could be from a heat. Some does will have so little that it is not noticeable, others will have enough to stick on their tails.


    My girls are lovey with me more than usual the day before they go into standing heat, the second they are willing to stand for the buck they turn into nasty witches, mainly with the other girls but my eldest doe will "growl" at me! And they are vocal too.....even though pygmies and nigi's will breed year round, they have stronger heats and ruts in the late summer to late winter......so watch Frank too, he'll be even ornerier at this time.
     
  15. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    hmmm if she isnt kidding soon then I would presume she is in heat - those signs are also signs of a doe in heat
     
  16. Janne

    Janne New Member

    38
    Aug 17, 2009
    Kentucky
    I really do hope she's just in heat. She's never been this hostile while in heat before, which is what had me worried. I checked her ligaments a little while ago. She doesn't have the jelly feeling like she did when she kidded in March. It's softer than usual, but not jelly. No new discharge, either.

    I'm still checking on her frequently. Hopefully, this is just one vicious heat cycle. And you know what would be even better? I could breed her the right way this time around! LOL :ROFL: I'd love another March kidding.
     
  17. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    LOL....March is good! But she'd still be waiting til October to visit Frank, I had my does bred the 17th and 19th of October last year to kid the 15th and 16th of this past March...could not have asked for better weather.
     
  18. Janne

    Janne New Member

    38
    Aug 17, 2009
    Kentucky
    We really lucked out with the March kidding. We'd had an ice storm that made national news, then about 8" of snow, then a wind storm followed by a tornado... The first pretty day we had all year long, little Jesse made his appearance!

    I might try to wait until late October to breed them (granted she doesn't kid on me) so that we'll have a late March or early April kidding. Hopefully, all the nasty weather will be over by then.
     
  19. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    How is she doing today? Any updates?
     
  20. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    sounds like early labor to me. Some of the signs would be in heat as well, but i have never seen a doe want to be in a stall and paw at beeing while in heat. looking over their shoulder and screaming yes, but usually they are looking for a buck and if you havea buck on site then she most likely would be hunting him down.
    beth