Next patient in Dr Keren's ER

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by keren, Jul 5, 2009.

  1. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Next in-coming patient is due to arrive in a few hours ...

    4 yr old British Alpine doe, kidded 1 -2 wks ago with twins. Currently presenting with lethargy and sudden scours.

    She comes from a herd which lost 3 does yesterday. The first two showed no symptoms of ill heath when observed in the morning, 3 - 4 hrs later they were dead, with excessive scouring covering the animal and bedding, although there were no previous signs of scouring. The third doe displayed lethargy and scouring for several hours before dying.

    These does have all kidded in the last 2 - 3 wks, most rearing triplets, some rearing twins. One thing notable about this herd is that all the does are extremely overweight, fat to the point of being morbidly obese.

    The does are being fed ad lib grass hay and have got green pasture growth up to their bellies. Until this happened the does were also being fed whole grain barley and wheat almost ad lib. The grain has now been removed from them. They do not have access to mineral blocks.

    So ..... method of attack when this doe gets here, fluid therapy, heavy antibiotics, glucose supplementation. I'm honestly not sure what is wrong with them, except maybe a really nasty bacterial infection. The does who died were 12 - 14 yrs old but this british alpine doe is much younger. She is the only dairy doe in the herd, the rest are boer and boer cross. She is also the only young doe in the herd, the rest are between 9 and 16 years old.

    Local vets have been consulted, with unsatisfactory results. Diagnoses range from scours due to gorging on green feed, to grass tetany (hypomagnasemia). Treatment was to feed oaten hay only. No antibiotics, supportive therapy etc :roll: Since there have been several sheep and cattle deaths around the area, the vets do not seem to be concerned about a few goats dying. Note that this is not my vet, my vet knows if they treated me like that I'd never be coming back :)

    Your thoughts?
     
  2. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    my first guess is too much protein too fast, do you know how big the kids were when they were born? did the kid with ease or troubles? Another possible scenario is uteran infection or a bacteria infection.
    How do eye lids look? have their been fecals run? If they havent been wormed or cocci treated a massive overload can be worsened by a stressful situation like kidding.
    I agree that fluids need to be started immidiatly, it also wouldnt hurt to get some probios and vitamin c in her. I would also get her going on a round of pen or soemthing in case its an infection.
    beth
     

  3. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I agree with sparks879......have you gotten a fecal done?.....it may very well be.. cocci..... :wink: :hug:
     
  4. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    the kids were small and all were pulled - the does were heaving but the uterus wasnt contracting. Almost all were malpresented as well

    I'm inclined to think there are several factors involved:

    1. the does are too fat and lacking minerals, possibly several deficiencies including calcium
    2. they are suffering from a huge burden of worms, cocci or an infection - and the fact that they are unhealthy to start with, plus the stress of kidding, means they cant fight it at all. Goodness knows we have had the right conditions for worms and cocci.
     
  5. sealawyer

    sealawyer New Member

    366
    May 31, 2009
    Dew, Texas
    Any signs of anemia? A well fed goat can also be affected by a heavy worm load after giving birth. Get a fecal done asap.
    Cocci a definite possibility!
     
  6. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I will pray for her...keren.......... :hug: :pray:
     
  7. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    not much change, she's still alive but no improvement

    the way this is working, if the doe lives, I get to keep her and her two kids, add up what I spent on meds for her, minus that from the purchase price we have agreed to and pay the owner the balance. if she dies, I'm out of pocket for the meds price but I figure its worth it education wise. I kinda like playing around with the hopeless cases that most people just euthanase. lotta the time I can save them. this girl, I'm not so sure. she's not looking great ... I'm just about to go out and run an iv for some more fluids and a/b and glucose and what not
     
  8. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    not contracting is a big sign of calcium deficiancy. Do you guys have CMPK or something close to it over there? the minerals being off is a big factor too. But i would start putting some calcium in her.
    Had a friend call me with a goat down on her due date, she wouldnt get up, but was acting like she had early stages of labor. 300 mg of CMPK later she finally had the strength to contract and really go into labor.
    If they didnt know the due dates on these animals the very well could of gone in labor just because their bodies couldnt hang onto the kids anymore. The lack of contractions can be contributed to the malpositioning of the kids.
    beth
     
  9. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    yep, beth, I'd figured that much out. the scouring and sudden death 2 - 3 wks post partum was what had stumped me. yeah, she's had minject, our version of CMPK

    well I'm pretty certain I figured out what is wrong with this poor old doe (and may have been the problem with the others, or may be unrelated). I'm almost 100% certain she's retained a kid. Which is now nicely rotting away poisoning her. Today she is screaming out in pain and heaving like you wouldnt believe. I've seen retained calves in cows and she is the spitting image.

    Now, you'd think it was a good thing, that I got a diagnosis now I know how to treat her. Well. I rang the owner, asked her whether she did an internal exam to check for more kids, told her what was happening, and what I was going to do for the doe. I immediately dosed her up heavy on antibiotics, gave oxytocin to open the cervix. And I was preparing a Lotagen Uterine flush, when out of the blue the owner arrives. with her partner. starts ranting and raving about me being wrong, its not that, it couldnt be that, she has spoken to her vet and it is grass tetany, thats all it is, she doesnt need what I'm giving her, all she needs is epsom salts drenched into her. well they loaded her up and drove away with her. I was just about in tears because the poor old girl cant even stand, she's screaming in pain, she certainly didnt need to be transported around again.

    :sigh: what a mess. the thing that really upsets me is, the doe isnt going to receive the treatment she needs, and the way I see it, she's going to die in a few days. it upsets me because the doe is very bright and reasonably happy today, and I'm confident I could have saved her. and she is still a young doe, a good type, sweet temper and a lovely milker.

    :sigh: I'll call in the morning to see if she's still alive, maybe if she gets worse they will reconsider and let me treat her again
     
  10. sealawyer

    sealawyer New Member

    366
    May 31, 2009
    Dew, Texas
    Keren, Sometimes the best thing to do is to just stop and think about the situation, then just let it go. You have worked so hard on this case and have done this many times before but the "owners" don't trust your judgement enough to see this through so they deserve anything that happens to the poor animal.
    It is not your fault, Okay!
    I have a "former" aquaintance that wanted to believe the vet because he had a degree no matter what Gwen told him the problem was with the animal. So much so that he accused her of wanting to kill it! Well, it turned out that Gwen's diagnosis was correct after he sent the goat in for a necropsy. It was a copper deficiency that needed long term care just as she said. To this day the person who owned the goat will not look Gwen in the eye and apologize. Too prideful!
    I know that this situation hurts your soul, but you need to move ahead and not brood on this. Move on to the other things that are important to you.
    Be at Peace and know that our prayers are with you.
     
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    oh Keren I am so sorry :hug: I cant believe someone would be so irresponsible. They put her in your care and then to do that UGH makes me so mad
     
  12. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    OH Keren, :hug: I am so sorry for this. I just hate it when someone asks for help then they get mad like that or do not do what you say.

    Just know you did what you could. What a shame, and I hope she pulls out of this for YOUR sake.

    I will say that I had a doe that had a retained kid. She was down in less then 20 hours. She was down on her side and she had thrashed all over her stall. So if it had been longer then that I would question that she had a retained baby.

    Either way, I hope she makes it for all your trouble.
     
  13. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I am so sorry keren... :( ....don't kick yourself over it...you did alot for her and then some...
    I will pray ....that she makes it through...this.. :hug: :pray:
     
  14. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    She died :sigh: bout 4pm this afternoon

    Not much I could do about it, but it still hurts
     
  15. sealawyer

    sealawyer New Member

    366
    May 31, 2009
    Dew, Texas
    I'm sorry to hear that you have lost her. :sigh:
    Gwen and I will say a prayer for you.
    Be at Peace. :pray:
     
  16. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I am so sorry keren.. :( ..you did so much for the baby....I know.. it is hard but ...you did all you could do......here is a :hug: because you deserve it.... :hug: :hug:
     
  17. AlaskaBoers

    AlaskaBoers New Member

    May 6, 2008
    Wasilla Alaska
    :hug: You tried best as you could
     
  18. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    You tried and gave your best as well you could have. Sorry she passed on ,but she is definatly in a better place now :hug: