Not quite an emergency but need your input on a kid problem

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by keren, Oct 29, 2008.

  1. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Hey guys, wondering if you can help.

    Little FB boer buck was born two days ago, one of two, mum is a 8 yr old, kidded before, has rejected the kids this year ?? not sure why. But thats not the problem.

    This little boy ... it is hard to explain but when he feeds (I am tying the doe up several times a day to let the kids feed) he will suck for a few minutes, then all of a sudden his eyes will close, his legs go stiff and he drops -- he falls over, flat on his side, legs stretched out, the eyes open but he doesnt have any awareness of 'the outside world', his lips twitch a little, he looks for all the world like he has suddenly dropped dead. Then after a few seconds he gets up and starts drinking again. After some more sucking he will do it again. He will repeat this probably five or six times in a five minute feeding period.

    He is otherwise healthy and happy, bouncing baby. He doesnt do it when he is sucking a bottle or a finger. He doesnt do it at any other time either.

    How bizarre! I have never seen this before (and I have seen a LOT of kids born).

    Anyone got any ideas?

    I am going to video it tomorrow morning and post on you tube, will get you guys a link so you can see it for yourselves as its kind of difficult to explain.
     
  2. Di

    Di Crazy Goat Lady

    Jan 29, 2008
    central PA
    Sounds like a seizure...but strange that it wouldn't happen at other times. May be why she wouldn't feed them...she knows he "not right"...strange she wouldn't feed the other one though. Hope he gets better...good luck. :shrug:
     

  3. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Di, I know from experience a lot of times when a doe rejects a kid there is something 'wrong' with them. But I too, think it is strange that she wont feed the other as well. This is the first time she has kidded for us, and she did come from a place where the people are 'bottle happy' ... dont get me wrong I will bottle feed if I have to and I actually enjoy it - but to me that is the doe's job - I tie them up and MAKE them accept the kid - and if she doesnt, she goes to the abbatoir. Everything on the place must have a job and perform that job.

    I just took him out to my foster doe to see ... he does it when suckling her as well. I was wondering if maybe he forgets to breathe while drinking?? I dont know how much of a serious problem this will be, if he will be okay, I sort of wonder if he will just do it one day but never get up again?
     
  4. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    quite interesting --- so you said when he drinks the bottle he is ok? I would just pull him and bottle feed to save you the trouble of seeing him like that :( and like you said, him not getting back up one day.

    Almost seems like there is a nerve he is pinching when eating and he goes temporarily paralyzed. :shrug:
     
  5. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    I wonder if there is an enzyme in mom's milk that he is having a reaction to. Are you bottle feeding, and if so are you feeding his momma's milk? If so, does he do it with momma's milk in the bottle?

    If it was a seizure he should be doing it other times other then just feeding. He could very well be holding his breathe - watch his breaths while eating. Also, feel his throat while eating - is he eating "normal" or gulping?
     
  6. Pam B

    Pam B New Member

    175
    Oct 15, 2007
    Southern Michigan
    I think you are probably right about him not breathing when he is nursing. Maybe he gets his nose buried when he is nursing from a doe, which wouldn't happen when bottle feeding. It always amazes me the new things these goats will come up with to make our lives exciting. :roll:
     
  7. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Since he is doing this while nursing both does, sounds like he's holding his breath...I feel as you do, moms are made to care for those babies, but a bottle may be in order for you to moniter him while he eats, you may need to give small amounts more frequently to see if it happens then. That would be a scary thing to see, I know I've never had that happen, but would scare me wondering whats wrong.
     
  8. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Watching him closely this morning, I am wondering if he jams his nose up right against the udder and that is why he cant breathe. He takes the whole teat in his mouth and pushes up against the udder while drinking.

    I forgot the camera when I got up early this morning to help him feed :oops: too early. Will video the next feeding.

    The other things I was possibly thinking was a nerve being pinched when the neck is bent up to suckle, or maybe a deformity in the windpipe which cuts off his air when the neck is bent up. But now I am definitely thinking the udder.
     
  9. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Well said! Tho I have no ideas for you, I do have one doe who tries to reject the smallest kid every year. The first time I fell for it but then realized I could force her to nurse the one she wants no part of.
    I keep hearing how maybe theres something wrong with the kid..in her case it was something wrong with HER as in hard headed two teated Boer who doesnt think she can do it!!
    That first baby she rejected has grown up to be a fine healthy great momma herself, and the succeeding ones she tried to reject are well on their way to being great too...nothing wrong at all with these babies as far as the rejection theory goes!
    Keren hang in there, hope that little boy figures out how not to cut off his own air supply!
     
  10. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Nancy, I should probably re-word that. I have had does that I have bought from other people that will reject one of multiples every year ... it is a bad habit and I dont put up with them - I cull them. However, when it is a doe I have never had problems with, and this time around she suddenly rejects one, nine times out of ten the kid has either died or been very runty in the end (even though she grudgingly feeds it).

    I had an interesting case early this year, a Boer doe dropped twin bucks, the second one got to his feet and walked away from mum and out of the pen three times in a couple of hours. I thought wow, thats weird. He sucked well but she has one calabash teat (once they are older they can feed off it), so I milked her and bottle fed him that night. By the next day, she HATED him. I mean head butting, biting and picking him up and throwing him. We intervened early enough she didnt hurt him. Anyway, fed him again that night as she was being a monster to graft him on, but by midnight he was dead. This doe never has bonding issues - I think she knew there was something wrong with him. She was also really difficult to milk - strange for her - but I think she associated it with me trying to put the dud kid on her.
     
  11. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Thanks Keren for sharing that, as Ive assumed that rejection is blamed on nonthrifty kids more often than sometimes it should, so I learned something new today!
     
  12. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    UPDATE - he has figured it out and no longer faints lol

    He's a funny little chap. I never did get a video because when I went out with the camera was the first time he didnt faint :roll:
     
  13. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    of course! lol

    glad he figured it out, poor fellow
     
  14. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    wow that was sure different...I am so happy he is OK.... :)