Odd swelling after dibudding...any thoughts?

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Realfoodmama, Apr 12, 2010.

  1. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and goat motherhood in general. This was the first year I had any kids and I had an experienced friend do the disbudding of my two sable saanen bucks.

    Its been about a week since they were burned and one is developing a strange swelling under one of the burn marks. I don't know if I should be concerned or not? His behavior is unaltered and it doesn't seem to be bothering him, but I don't know if its an infection, or maybe a scur forming or what!

    I don't have a picture atm, but I will post one ASAP.

    Is it normal for swelling to happen this long after the disbudding? I just don't know what to expect!

    Thanks in advance!

    - RFM
     
  2. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    It should not be swollen after a week. It would be great to have a picture because sometimes the bud itself can continue to grow if not burned correctly and could be mistaken for a swelling.

    I know it sounds gross, but sniff the baby's head. If it smells kind of rotten then he's got an infection starting and that needs to be taken care of asap.
     

  3. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    I agree with Jess -- it could be the horn bud growing or an infection and the head will smell like something is dead if there is an infection.
     
  4. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    Thanks guys. I sniffed his head and the only thing it smelled like was goat, so if it is an infection it certainly isn't a bad one.

    Here are a few pics...maybe they will shed some light on it? Its hard to see really what is going on in them, but you can see at least that it is white, the scab from the disbudding is coming off and there is no hair growing...I'm beginning to think it may be horn growth, but I would love to hear more opinions!

    I posted some pictures here:

    http://realfoodmama.wordpress.com/2010/ ... of-it-all/
     
  5. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    I don't know really anything about this becasue thank the lord I do not do it, but looking at the picture I could not see anything at all so I am sure one of the experts will chime in here.

    By the way. :wave: welcome, so glad you are here with us,
     
  6. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Looks normal to me, maybe a bit of scur growth.
     
  7. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    looks fairly normal but its not the best detailed picture (I know you did your best I totally understand)
     
  8. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Hmm . . . it certainly is a bit weird looking. :chin: It kinda looks like it may have been infected at one time and then recovered???? :shrug:

    Yeah . . . looks like it was probably infected at one time and recovered, but left a scar. Maybe he was disbudded too deep and it scarred the tissue around his little skull :GAAH:

    Check for any excessive heat coming from that swollen-ish area. If it's even at the brink of infection that one side will be hotter than the other side of his head. If so, get him on antibiotics asap!

    Whatever it is . . . it doesn't look very serious at this point . . . but I would monitor it closely. :hug:
     
  9. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Looks like the person that burned left the cap on, which does lead them more prone to infection, imo. Since I started burning to the skull and taking the caps off I haven't had any infections.

    If your really worried, you could take his temp and spray some blue kote on it.
     
  10. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    Well, I am pretty sure the cap was left on. It was the last one to get done and I think the person doing it for me was a little nervous having observers...

    Suffice it to say that side bled a bit and I put some blood stop powder on it after the fact. Probably not the best idea! I didn't have any topical antibiotics however so it seemed better than nothing.

    It doesn't seem warm and it doesn't smell, but it does seem to be getting bigger...

    If I need antibiotics what should I use? I haven't ever dosed a goat before and while I have access to supplies, I don't have a clue what kind of dosage to give or how frequently. Suggestions appreciated!
     
  11. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    When you say it's growing... do you mean in a large amount in the past couple days? Or a small amount in a couple weeks?

    Because if it's grown real fast in the last couple days then I would suspect infection, otherwise I'd say it's a scur.
     
  12. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    I only noticed it about three days ago when the scab portion fell off and it showed white. It has gotten noticeably larger in that time.
     
  13. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Hmm.. then it sounds like it may be infection. Have you taken his temp? He wont necessarily have a temp if it is infected, but if he does have a temp then you will know the infection is systemic.
     
  14. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    He doesn't have a temp at this point. I assume the normal range for a kid is the same as an adult?

    He is also enthusiastically butting heads with his bro, so clearly it isn't too painful. I think I will go ahead and buy some penicillin at the feed store today in either case and try to dose him tonight. I'd rather give him antibiotics without being sure than wait until it gets worse (if it does).
     
  15. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    A horn that has been disbudded with an iron should not bleed . . . the heat of the iron should cauterize the blood vessels as it burns through the flesh and bone.

    I think the white that you saw when the scab fell off was probably the soft tissue underneath (It could have also been part of his skull if he was burned too deep). That's usually normal to see white or pink tissue after the scab falls off.

    It sounds to me like the iron wasn't hot enough or/and the person doing the disbudding didn't hold the iron on the goat long enough. What you are seeing grow is probably the horn growing back.

    What part of the horn have you seen growing? The center of the ring or the outer edge of the ring itself? Also, is it 'growing' such as the ring is getting larger or is it 'growing' up away from his head?

    Antibiotics will not hurt him if dosed properly :) If you're worried about it I would start him on a 5 day regimen.
     
  16. Realfoodmama

    Realfoodmama New Member

    425
    Apr 12, 2010
    Santa Fe, NM
    The growth I've seen is on the outer edge of the circle from the disbudding, and is growing mostly up. The primary reason why I have not just written it off as horn growth from a failed disbudding is that it seems pretty big. Like...maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch in total "length" (I used quotes because it isn't exactly straight lol...I wish I could draw on the internet...would make this so much easier if I had a diagram! :greengrin: )

    If anything, the expansion of the white surface is happening both in height and in width. So it is growing up and seems to be expanding toward the center. But it still has no smell, does not seem warm, and feels harder than I would think a big ball of puss would feel...gross, sorry.

    I will start him on antibiotics and see if it goes down. If it doesn't, and it is horn growth, I'm not sure that I can do much about it, since he is scheduled to go to new owners this weekend and I don't have a disbudding iron (hence the use of my friend). On the other hand, if it is an infection, I want him to be well on his way to recovery before he changes hands.

    Who would have thought I would obsess so much over goats! :ROFL:
     
  17. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Yeah, if it's horn growth there's nothing you can do about it at this point. If the horn develops you might think about dehorning him later in life, but that is a big deal surgical procedure and it might be easier on him and you if he just lives with a horn. :shrug:

    If you are up to it . . . you could try to aspirate the growth with a needle ( only do this if you have him on antibiotics). :chin: What I do is I take a thick-ish needle (20x1A gauge. . . I think those are the ones that have the pink tops at tractor supply co.), hold the baby down, stick the needle into the growth, and pull back hard on the plunger several times. If you get pus out then you have an abscess forming up there. If the needle doesn't go in at all then you've got bone or horn growth. If you get blood then you might have a hematoma. If all you get is air then you've got some kind of weird tissue growth that is still really confusing, lol :p

    Oh and if you do get something in the needle you can take it to your vet to get it cultured if you want. That would help you choose what type of antibiotic to use. (Or you could bring it to me and I would culture it just for fun, LOL! :leap: . . . ok Jess, get back down to earth now :oops: :p )

    If you don't feel like sticking him with a needle then just keep up the antibiotics and watch for any signs of inflammation, tenderness, itching, swelling, and miscellaneous infection signs. :wink:
     
  18. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    A 20 gauge needle would be a bit small for drawing up whatever might be in that bump. I would use a 16 gauge. The bigger the number the smaller the size. 20 gauge are very thin.
     
  19. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Yeah, a 16 gauge would be best to use. That's BIG lol.

    You could still disbud him. I just did Jen's goats over for her. It's a little more traumatizing, but it can be done.