One 8 day old not standing right

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by nancy d, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    This is one of the orphan bottle Boer babies. Sat I noticed he wasnt standing right at all. Sometimes he goes to his knees or kind of hops on hind legs in an abnormal gait. This IS one of our bucks's first kid crop who wasnt doing well in his rear legs at a yr old wondering if this could this be genetic~
    He got a shot of BoSe his first day. Have not taken temp he sucks fine.
    Any suggestions?
     
  2. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    Can they get the BoSe shot more than once? You know I don't know anything, but trying to be supportive. :laugh: I'd check a temp and maybe some nutridrench? :hug:
    **Edited to ask if there is any myotonic bloodlines?
     

  3. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Thanks Perfect7...good suggestion about Nutri Drench!!
    No Mytonic bloodlines.
    Would like to know about the BoSe...its my understanding it doesnt last in their system very long, anyone know for certain?
     
  4. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    I know watching our doeling eat from her mother, she would drop to her knees to nurse. I think this is normal when they are eating, but do you mean at some other times as well? Our youngsters still do this out eating in the pasture, probably because they are lazy. :p Not sure about that funny hop you are talking about. :shrug: Hopefully somebody that knows more than me will answer. I've never had any as young as yours.
     
  5. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Its slightly abonormal, I dont know how to describe it. Not the usual dropping to knees to nurse. Sometimes he will sort of collapse in the rear for a moment or two as well.
     
  6. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    The first thing that comes to mind is "ataxia" when I think of what you're describing, and ataxia in kids can be caused by a variety of things...but none of which are super common.

    You could be looking at the "encephalitis" part of CAE, which can cause progressive paralysis from the hind limbs forward in kids.. You said he was an orphan, though....if he never nursed, it's unlikely to be CAE..

    There's also enzootic ataxia and swayback, which are both basically the result of copper deficiency.. Swayback is considered congenital, whereas enzootic ataxia is developed after birth.. I'd say it's even more rare than the encephalitic form of CAE..

    Then there's floppy kid syndrome, the first presentation of which is an unsteady gate, "wobbliness", or a kid that seems to get its back legs crossed.. This is probably the most likely of the three, strictly in terms of the number of incidents as compared to one another.. Was he ever "right" at any point? Is this unsteadyness something new in the last couple of days?

    If it's a new development, I'd suspect FKS and start treating for it now... Sodium bicarbonate drenches and possibly even isotonic sodium bicarb IV fluids, along with systemic antibiotics (sq shots) for secondary infections are pretty much the treatment.. Some folks drench with 1ml of Penicillin as it's suspected that there may be some clostridial bacterium involvement, but studies apparently haven't been conclusive on that. What is pretty much accepted these days is that it's a systemic acidosis...gut, blood, everything is acidic. Sodium bicarb helps that.

    Or....well, it could also be a spinal or limb injury of some kind.. Or just weakness from some other underlying illness or injury..


    In any case, Bo-Se was a good idea. Someone said they didn't think selenium stuck around long, but that's not really the case...they can be OD'd on selenium. Not something you want to give in rounds like an antibiotic or b-complex or whatever.

    Good luck, and keep us posted.
     
  7. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Thank you Cmjust for your VERY informative reply!

    He developed this wobblyness at 8 days. Hasnt declined since then but about the same. I have never seen FKS.
    He did get sodium bicarb in his bottle so we shall see.
     
  8. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Just out of curiosity, what kind of milk is he getting? Goat? Cow? Replacer? How much is he getting? Also, why is he an orphan...did mama pass on? If so, do you know what brought her down? Is he still taking a bottle, or has he stopped? Does he seem overly full, perhaps "sloshing" when shaken? Any diarrhea at all since he got the bicarb? Is he pooping at all? Fever? Respiratory distress?

    Sorry to play 20 questions, but I'm just thinking about a lot of different scenarios.. If he's getting a lot of milk for 8 days old, I'd be thinking FKS.. Or perhaps if mama had mineral deficiencies and the kid's getting a 'sheep and goat' milk replacer or something like that, in which case be copper-related enzootic ataxia might make sense.. Or if he had to be pulled, perhaps he was injured slightly and is having some nervous symptoms from swelling somewhere.. Or if mama died with some type of neurological issue (listeriosis, for instance), maybe he's somehow affected as well..

    Right now, I'd probably continue on as though it's early FKS, only because you don't really have any way of knowing different and the prognosis for FKS is much better when caught early...and early treatment for FKS seems pretty benign to me, even if it's not FKS.

    I'd probably treat him with sodium bicarb pretty regularly (1tsp every 6hrs for a day to see if he improves, maybe?) and perhaps even start him on PenG, about 1ml/day SQ. I'm not usually a big fan of giving *baby* babies Probios, but if clostridials play any role in FKS, getting some colonies of good gut bacteria to shove the bad bacteria around a little may not be a bad idea..

    PenG..bicarb..Probios..all pretty benign, I think, though some would probably call it WAY overkill for a kid whose only symptoms are stumbling around a little. I can see that, but sometimes the "wait and see" approach just doesn't cut it for me -- especially when one of the things I'm waiting for carries with it a high rate of mortality when it manifests itself very obvously.

    Again...good luck with him, and do keep us posted..
     
  9. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Dam went down a week ago today, kids at 3 days old. (See thread on that I cant remember exact title but I think it was Gimpy Boer Doe or something to that effect)
    We suspected preg toxemia & treated with CMPK for a few days & fortified B as well. No signifcant improvement. Was not eating or drinking. Highest temp was 104 something then normal for a few days.

    We feed high quality free choice alfalfa here along with Boer Goat Developer in the last weeks of preg & SweetLix meatmaker minerals yr round.

    Everyone (exception of new kids) UTD on hoof trimmings worming BoSe CDT & lmnop.
    Doe had quads her 5th kiddng. One born dead. One became cold, brought her in could not warm her up.
    They got dam's colostrum. Then raw goat milk from our freezer till we ran out then switched them over to whole cow with a little buttermilk & regular evap.
    Funny thing about the sloshy belly you mentioned, yes!
    Thank you for your replies.
     
  10. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Takes bottle like a champ. No respitory probs. Have not taken temp as he seems fine other than not standing right. No trouble getting up & moving around its just that he seems a little wobbly in the rear at times.
    Interestly enough his sire developed wobbly rear at almost a year old so Im starting to wonder if this could be genetic, tho his other kids normal movement. So many dynamics here!
    Pees fine gonna have to check for berries but rear end clean.

    ETA the reason Im throwing the possibility of genetics into the ring is that his sire's sire produced a mighty fine crop with the exception of one kid born who never did even try to get up even after BoSe. I use the injectable given IM. He just layed there splayed out on all fours. Had no will to even try. Different year, different doe.
     
  11. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Regardless of genentics~
    Doing some reading on FKS looks like what I could be dealing with. His temp is fine.
    They are currently getting 12oz 4x a day. We slowly worked up to this over the last week. This aft he didnt quite finish 8. Perhaps cuase of 1/8 teasp bicarb in it.
    I admit I might be feeding too much?
    One source says poor quality colostrum which Im sure the dam had what with being a few days away from death's door. I did wind up getting Oberhasli colostrum which was definetly not as thick or yellow as Boer.
    And that not all kids are necessarily affected in the same conditions.
    One remedy was to withold bottle 24hrs & just give the bicarb dissoved in water & a dose of oxytet. Would Biomycin be a good sub?
    I cant lose this guy his brother cant be alone! :help:
     
  12. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    BioMycin is our preferred antibiotic, as it doesn't sting or affect the animals like the other oxy one's do...(yikes! Those others make them scream like your killing 'em!) But the BioMycin has always been taken well be the few that have gotten it here.

    This is a copy/paste about Bio-Mycin 200 from the Jeffers Catalog:

    Formulated with a "no sting" carrier. Broad-spectrum antibiotic, containing 200 mg of oxytetracycline per ml, for the treatment of diseases caused by susceptible gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria, including pinkeye. For IM or SQ use in beef cattle, lactating or non-lactating dairy cattle and IM use in swine. 3-4 day blood and tissue levels. Dosage: 4 1/2 ml per 100 lb. of body weight. 28 day slaughter withdrawal in cattle and 42 day slaughter withdrawal in cattle and 42 days for swine.
     
  13. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Great article here:
    http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=70

    Says treatment =
    The first thing that we recommend is to leave affected kids off milk for 24 to 36 hrs. Again, because the kids look very weak, it has been difficult to convince goat producers that the problem is due to overfeeding and not to lack of energy. However, keeping kids temporarily off milk is probably the single most important thing in treating these cases. Secondly, the acidity of the stomach needs to be neutralized by administering a bicarbonate (baking soda) solution. For this purpose, dissolve 1 teaspoon of baking soda in one glass of water and administer 10-20- ml of this solution orally. Repeat this procedure 2 to 3 times within the following 3 to 6 hours. Most kids will show clear improvement with this treatment within the following 6 to 10 hours. Treated kids first become more active and will initially pass very solid feces that subsequently turn into diarrhea. This is a good sign and an indication that the intestines are moving again. The third part of the treatment consists of administering a wide spectrum antibiotic to prevent secondary infections. After 36 hours the affected kids can be put back with their mothers if they take them. Otherwise they would need to be raised on a milk substitute. Initially, artificial milk needs to be diluted with water and small amounts of milk (100 ml) need to be given 3 to 4 times a day for the first 2 days, then follow the manufacturers instruction.
     
  14. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Thank you Tracy!!!! Good stuff there I have bookmarked that.
    Just gave biomycin (also my drug of choice) and sodium bicarb dissolved in water.
    He DOES seem to have extended stomach, cries when I put him in my lap.
     
  15. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Poor baby, I would really pull any milk and follow the directions from that link I gave you.

    We also lost a baby doeling early this you to the same symptoms...which is why I researched it so much. She was also only about 2lb at birth, so it's tough to say what it was in the end. She did seem to do alright in the first few days then went downhill QUICK! But we didn't know enough to pull the milk... hopefully our loss will help you out. I know it has taught us a lot about how quickly the babies can take a bad turn.
    My prayers are with your little one...
     
  16. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Traci I deeply appreciate your concern & the info. Kid is now off milk.
    Cmjust you gave lots of great info which caused me to look into this further.
    THANK YOU both you are terrific!
     
  17. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Sloshy, stumbling, painful belly....almost has to be early FKS. Withholding milk is a good idea, and keep the bicarb coming. You caught this early; hopefully that will make the difference.

    My fingers, toes, and eyes are crossed for ya....keep us posted.
     
  18. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    He is doing slightly better. Not walking on kness but still sort of hopping on rear legs. By this I mean he puts weight fwd to walk & rear legs barely touch ground. Does not put full weight on them unless standing.
    Takes 2 or 3 sucks from bicarb water so I've had to syringe it down him.

    Two more questions here.
    First of all I have not seen either poop since meconium & have seen no berries in bedding. Have seen them pee.
    Secondly, how do I introduce milk? Do I water it down with a little bicarb? If so how long before he can take full strength bottle?
    BellaFire I have been reading & re-reading the link you posted. You guys have been a life saver!
     
  19. Perfect7

    Perfect7 New Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    South Georgia
    How long since he had a poo? Just wondering maybe if it's been awhile he's having the stomach pain and walking tender in the rear from constipation (in addition to whatever else may be going on)? :shrug:
     
  20. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    I have not seen either of them in person poop since meconium what..almost a week ago? It could be in the bedding.
    Been in touch w/mentor.
    Got Dex, thiamine, Bounce Back. He sucked down 6 oz so I gave him an additional 6.
    This aft it was 8oz Bounce Back water & another 6.
    After the thiamine & Dex this am he has perked up considerably. He was never lethargic but is now putting a little more weight on rear legs.
    This is the first time in days I myself have had an appetite. When they dont feel good I dont either.