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Perplexed by our Nubians

4094 Views 66 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  Rockland Ridge Ranch
Hello, I have hung around this forum on and off over the past few months, but finally joined today. I am posting out of frustration and perplexity with our Nubian does.
We have two milking Nubian does, standard size, and are getting about 5 pints of milk per day between the two of them on 2X per day milking. We bought 'Sugar' as a FF in April with two kids at her side and 'Hope' (about 6 years old) kidded in May with a single doeling. Both are rail-thin, and we are at our wits' end trying to persuade them to eat more. We run them with our sheep during the day in a rotational grazing system (FRESH paddock EVERY day during the summer) and feed them hay inside at night. It got to the point where they were all but refusing our home-grown hay (mostly orchardgrass with a little clover in it) and everyone says you need alfalfa to make goats milk, so I went out and bought alfalfa. They pick and root through it, eating what they want; but that seems to be very little. This is DECENT HAY, green, leafy, no noticeable mold. I've taken to feeding hay from three different bales, but it seems to make little difference. I clean it out of their feeder in the AM and feed it to the sheep, so they are getting new hay every evening.
'Hope' gets into this thing every summer where she quits eating grain, and this year is no different. Milk production drops sharply when this behavior starts. I give her all the grain she wants, she picks through it for awhile, then I take it away and give her oats and she picks through them for awhile. 'Sugar' is a grain vacuum and would jump off a tall cliff if she thought there was grain at the bottom. She was getting about 3 lb. per day (2 lb. goat feed & 1 lb oats), but I cut out the oats when I started seeing undigested oats in her stool.
We think we have some parasites, have seen some small roundworms in 'Sugar's' stool. I hit her hard (twice per day for a week) with diatomaceous earth and Molly's #2 formula. This, in connection with the alfalfa hay has helped production somewhat. I'm out of the Molly's, more ordered. If I don't see major improvement in 'Hope' I guess I'll go the chemical route and see what happens. Everyone says minerals are so important, so I bought Purina goat mineral last winter. The goats ate it for awhile, but barely ever touch it now. I tried sheep mineral for awhile, thought they maybe wanted a change, no joy. I cleaned out the feeder, thought maybe the cats or a rodent had been in there, same thing.
I read 1820 lb. on a 284 day lactation as an average for nubians, so I don't buy the "nubians don't milk" argument. Honestly, we would be thrilled with half to two thirds of that. I read about people running the kids with the mothers during the day and milking once per day, and it all sounds great--for the kids and for the people! But we expect these girls to work for a living, and it's honestly just not worth the effort to raise goats for a measly quart-to-three pints from two goats when we try milking once per day! But we would sure love to make it work!!
Something seems wrong, and I'm not sure if it's our goats or our management. (Both??) Both goats need to be culled (Sugar's udder is meaty, lopsided, and produces very little and she spends her days pacing the fence and screaming. My wife is sick of Hope body-slamming all the other animals around). I would like to hope for better things from their three doelings, but past experience leaves me with doubts. My wife raised sheep commercially for 30 years and goats on the side for the past 20. I have six years of experience on commercial (cow) dairy farms, so we are not total idiots at farming. But we are doing something very wrong with these goats.
This post is too long already. I'll wait for responses and post more information in follow-up posts if necessary. Thanks for reading!!
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I'd start out with a fecal, I know you said you saw roundworms, but to get a count and rule out other worms... also to see if you actually need a chemical wormer, I have heard great things about Molly's and LOH herbal dewormer though!
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Yeah, it's probably time for a fecal. I know the vet said Hope was loaded pretty heavily last summer when we had her tested, so we've been thinking it's probably an issue again. I've read good things about the Molly's too, but this is the first time trying it. We SO hate dumping the milk for a week when using chemicals!
By some of your other posts, it looks as if you are in N MN and even drier than we are. Pastures here are really dried up, haven't seen it this dry since 1988. We are shipping half of the sheep on Thursday, nothing to feed them anymore unless we go out and buy a lot of hay.:(
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Yes I'm in NW Minnesota! It's super dry here having trouble getting hay, luckily we found some!
Yeah, it's probably time for a fecal. I know the vet said Hope was loaded pretty heavily last summer when we had her tested, so we've been thinking it's probably an issue again. I've read good things about the Molly's too, but this is the first time trying it. We SO hate dumping the milk for a week when using chemicals!
By some of your other posts, it looks as if you are in N MN and even drier than we are. Pastures here are really dried up, haven't seen it this dry since 1988. We are shipping half of the sheep on Thursday, nothing to feed them anymore unless we go out and buy a lot of hay.:(
Sorry about your sheep! It's too bad, but they have to eat so what can you do!
I agree with getting a fecal run. A heavy parasite load can make them go off their feed. I have run into that issue before. Probiotics wouldn't be a bad idea, either. Have they started their heat cycles? My girls sometimes go a little crazy (I have Nubians, too), and do all sorts of weird things when they're cycling. The stress might make a dent in their production.
Did you buy them from someone who actually raises dairy goats? For some reason, in my area, people raise Nubians but aren't actually serious about milking them. So there are a lot of mediocre milkers out there. They're either not bred for milk, or they weren't handled correctly during their first couple of lactations to make sure that they developed good udder capacity and could sustain a long lactation. Fortunately, I had enough doelings this year that I'm hoping I won't have to go goat shopping again for a long time, and I can raise what will hopefully be productive does with good udders.
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I haven't read anybody else's responses so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant. 😅

First off, welcome to the forum!

Okay so how many paddocks are you rotating between? It could be that if you have too few, the parasites aren't dying by the time you get cycled around. Do your does' coats look course/rough? Have you checked their FAMACHA (inner eyelid color). A fecal is always a good idea when you are suspicious of worms and seeing skinny goats. The only worm you would really see in their poop would be tape worm sections. Other worms are not expressed in feces. Molly's herbals is not the best herb brand out there. Lots of people don't find it affective. I'd recommend Land of Havilah or Fir Meadows for herbal dewormers. Daily garlic cloves are a very helpful addition for the fight against parasites.

As far as minerals go, can you get sweetlix meat maker goat minerals? Lots of goats really like the taste. You want to put out only as much as they will eat in a day or the minerals will collects moisture and the goats won't like them. Sheep minerals don't have enough copper for the goats, but make sure your sheep can't get into the goat minerals because they would be bad for your sheep.

It is very possible that your girls are not genetically well bred enough to produce the amount of milk you want. Are they purebred, registered stock? Another factor could be in fact nutrition. I am unable to get alfalfa hay, but it is true that goats need a calcium source in order to produce milk. I give my girls alfalfa pellets on the stand instead of hay. There are also certain feeds that are formulated for milking goats that are higher in calcium. I use Blue Seal Premium Dairy Goat Pellet which is high in fat, protein, and calcium.

You could try adding a few things to their grain ration to encourage them to eat more on the stand and gain weight/produce more. I have a doe who is picky in the summer when it's hot so I know the frustration that that can bring.
Calf Manna (up to a cup mixed into their grain ration)
Dyne (This is a liquid that is super sweet and some goats love some goats hate. Great for weight gain.)
Wheat Germ Oil (I'm a wheat germ super fan. One tsp a day has done amazing things for my girls)
Black Oil Sunflower Seeds (I give a quarter cup twice a day and I would highly recommend adding this if you don't already feed it)
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Fecal tests on both does will be in the works ASAP. The worms I saw were white, about an inch long, disgusting squirmy things in a fresh poop.

I don't think the milking does are cycling yet, the yearling that has never been bred yes, but not seeing the milkers cycle yet. Genetics are an important question. 'Hope' is a papered American Nubian that supposedly has good bloodlines (would need to ask my wife for details). 'Sugar' is supposedly a papered American Nubian, but we have never actually gotten the papers from the previous owner. Questions to breeders and sellers about milk production produce vague answers. Except for a few commercial dairies, I know of only one other family keeping goats for family milk purposes. The rest, if they milk at all, milk once per day for a few months until they get tired of it, then dry the goats off. They are clueless how much they produce. It's frustrating. We need a buck, and I'm clueless where to start. We need an animal with decent, working lines behind it, but I don't necessarily mean "show" lines. We have a young family, it is hard to find the time to drive several hours or out of state to look at a goat.

I do think nutrition somehow plays into this. If they were fat, I would say the production issues are all genetic. I don't feel we know what type of genetics we have since they are such picky eaters.

I am going to try to get a look at their inner eyelids tonight. I did some reading on FAMACHA, and it looks fascinating, also looks political since one seems to need formal training before they will even sell you a score card. I don't envision that happening soon with my schedule.

We'll try the sunflowers, have read a lot of positive things about them.

The pasture is divided into long corridors and sub-divided by electrified netting. Adequate rest for parasite control is something I've wondered about; 3-4 weeks gives optimum forage quality for re-grazing (longer and the sheep especially trample and waste it badly), but longer is better for parasite control. The animals are currently on the hay field (has not been grazed since September 2020), but will be out of feed there in a week or two and will need to get back to the other pasture.

I'm not overly attached to Nubians. My wife is afraid of bad tasting milk with other breeds because of past negative experience, but I'm at the point of being willing to try a different breed or even cross breed. I want some ability to forage, decent production (would be thrilled with a gallon per goat per day!) gentle disposition (Sugar knocks my 2-year old down!) and the ability to at least partially utilize our home-grown forage. Maybe I'm asking too much . . .
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Nigerian dwarfs are known for their small size but heavy milking production and good tasting milk! If you were interested in a different breed. Look up them some

As far as the worms you saw, could be sections of tapeworms as suggested, or they have a heavy load I know with cats roundworms can pass through feces from a heavy load, goats not so sure ...
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Nigerian dwarfs are known for their small size but heavy milking production and good tasting milk! If you were interested in a different breed. Look up them some

As far as the worms you saw, could be sections of tapeworms as suggested, or they have a heavy load I know with cats roundworms can pass through feces from a heavy load, goats not so sure ...
Although I'm not sure about a gallon a day sounds like you want more of a big Alpine
I'm not overly attached to Nubians. My wife is afraid of bad tasting milk with other breeds because of past negative experience, but I'm at the point of being willing to try a different breed or even cross breed. I want some ability to forage, decent production (would be thrilled with a gallon per goat per day!) gentle disposition (Sugar knocks my 2-year old down!) and the ability to at least partially utilize our home-grown forage. Maybe I'm asking too much . . .
So, I know a lot of people are happy with Nubians and there are those that produce a gallon a day, but I have to mention kinders because I have them and they have been terrific for me. I have one doe that produces a gallon a day and another that gives 3/4 of a gallon at peak. They are a mid sized goat, so very easy handle. They are more of a dual purpose breed than nigerians or nubians and they have a tendency to have multiple kids (up to five!) so more kids to sell.

Where are you located? If you are interested I could maybe point you to some breeders.
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Maybe someone would let you try their milk
Maybe I'm asking too much . . .
By the way you are not asking too much. I know plenty of people on the forum that have goats that meet your goals. 😉
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Can I ask do you know their pedigree? My heavy producing does would make around 1 to 2 gallons a day. Yes one doe was closer to 2 gallons a day during her peak production.

So I would also suggest like the above.
Fecal, worming, calf manna, boss (black oil sunflower seed), loose minerals and checking eyelid colors. I can't believe they charge for cards. Used to the local ag. Agent would come out train people for free and give a card.

I think you said that they have lopsided udders. Have you seen self nursing? I had one doe do it before and some spicy teat rub stopped her from self nursing.

Hope you have some luck. Sorry had a long day at work and tried to read through all the comments above
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I would start them on Replamin Plus. You do a 5 day loader dose then once a week. It is 5cc. Still put the loose mineral out. Sounds like you also need a cobalt block. They could be mineral deficient especially copper and selenium. You may also want to consider alfalfa pellets instead of hay. What you put into the goat is what you get in the bucket.
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If your sheep are doing well have you thought about a few East Frisian or St Croix for milk?

Bad tasting milk is from bad mineral management. Lack of milk can be also.
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As far as the worms you saw, could be sections of tapeworms as suggested, or they have a heavy load I know with cats roundworms can pass through feces from a heavy load, goats not so sure ...
[/QUOTE]

They are definitely some type of round worm, and they definitely came from the goat. She deposited on my water hose that I was using for the garden next to her paddock, almost a diarrhea type deposit, and there they were, about 8-10 of them.
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So I have gotten quite a few responses, appreciate everyone's effort.

I suspect parasites are a much bigger problem than we thought. Almost everyone is bringing them up, and I did more research into them, and it sounds as if goats are one of the most parasite-susceptible animals anywhere. We are going to dig deeply into this one and I will update as I learn more.

I'll ask my wife to dig out Hope's pedigree, maybe I'll post it here and some of you can help me understand what all I'm looking at. I got really turned off by the livestock show business and registered stock people to the point I think I threw out the good along with the bad. We MAY have an image of Sugar's pedigree--previous owner was supposed to transfer the papers, but never did. My wife may have an image of it on her phone, I'll need to ask.

I'm quite certain we don't have a self-nursing issue with Sugar's lopsided udder. It was a nice-looking, even if small, udder when we got her; but we noticed very quickly that it just didn't 'milk out'--very congested. That resolved somewhat, but what we are left with is basically junk. It's really hard to describe, but the one half milks down OK if you massage it a lot. The other half never, ever looks milked out and feels as if there is strange, folded-up tissue inside it. That's a really poor description, but it's the best way I can think of to describe it. I have wondered if it was possibly destroyed my mastitis very early on, perhaps even before she kidded.

Kinders, Nigerian Dwarfs, it all sounds interesting. Keep the ideas coming. Gentle and calm are important to us, and what we have is not either of those. I realize that some of what we are dealing with is 'just goats,' but I'm hoping that not ALL goats are like ours. It's not like they are mean or unfriendly, just high-strung and quite frankly a little hard to handle. I have dreams of our children being able to help with milking and chores in a few years, but wow! It takes adult strength to stop these goats when they want to go somewhere we don't want them to go, to make them go somewhere they would rather not go, and to deal with the kicking and prancing about when they would rather not be milked!

I think the suggestions to improve our mineral situation may be warranted as well, but it feels a little overwhelming knowing where to start. We used to just feed everything sheep mineral. I added the Purina goat mineral because I read that goats really need the additional copper. (We keep it AWAY from the sheep, it's the first thing they eat when they get into a goat pen!!) When they quit eating it this spring, I wasn't sure what to think. I don't think our soil is TERRIBLE, but is was farmed hard for many years before we bought the farm, so I'm sure there are imbalances and deficiencies even in our best forage.

Someone asked where we are, answer is west-central Wisconsin, about 2 hours east of Minneapolis-St. Paul.
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Oh I'm originally from St. Paul! Funny you mention it! With the minerals are you leaving it out? Sometimes they absorb the moisture and the goats get picky. I would just add enough that they eat it up each night! Sounds like your doing your research as well! They may just be finicky goats lol not much you can do but try and work with them. If they are not quite making your goals maybe sell and start fresh with some that were handled more as youngsters!
Okay, first of all I just want to say that we are very happy to help you through all of your questions, so ask away! 🙂

There are plenty of registered stock that is bred, not for show, but for quality of animal. The fact that they are registered doesn't automatically mean they are good stock, it just means they are in fact pure bred. See what I am saying?

Here's the kinder goat breeder map, if you'd like to see if there are any close to you:Breeders - Kinder Goat Breeders Association

I wonder if it would be a good idea for you to get a nigerian buck. Nigerian bucks bred to nubian does create the "Mini Nubian" breed. If you can find a nigerian with good milking lines he could produce daughters that would improve your does. It sounds to me like you want a goat that is smaller and easier to handle. With a nigerian buck you could then later on decide if you wanted to go forward with mini nubians or get out of the nubians entirely and go for nigerians. This gives you lots of options for the future, more nubians, mini nubians and nigereians.

As far as minerals go you need to start with a good loose mineral. Purina goat mineral are not good enough for some goats, but some do okay on it. Can you get sweetlix meat maker goat minerals anywhere? I would recommend getting replamin plus gel and giving them 5cc weekly to get their levels up. If you can get your hands on some Thorvin Kelp and it's not too pricey for you, Kelp is awesome for mineral deficiencies too.

We'll help you figure out a deworming plan once you get fecal results. We have to know what we are dealing with first.😉
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