Please pray for my Doodle

Discussion in 'Goat Management' started by nagismom, Dec 13, 2010.

  1. nagismom

    nagismom New Member

    125
    Sep 25, 2010
    northern ohio
    So, tonight when we go out to do chores my little Doodle is down. She's a May kid and good size. Brought her in and called the vet. Her temp was 99.5 so we wrapped her up and surrounded her with hot water bottles and fed her warm honey water(could smell the ketones). Vet got there in 45 minutes. She's got polio...
    Doodle is near and dear to my 16 year old daughter. She's one of 2 rescues we have. We switched to manna pro loose minerals FREE CHOICE. I measured out 4 ounces for the 5 kids in that pen. He thinks even though there's no plain SULFAR in it there's plenty of compounds containing sulfar in it( ferrous sulfate, mg sulfate, Etc) and she gobbled it all up.
    It's going to be touch and go for the next 24 hours. She's blinking and swallowing now but still pretty stiff. Her temp is 102.5 now. I feel like the worse goat mom in the world. We've NEVER dealt with polio. I thought she had pneumonia and was just actively passing on. So Please, please, pray for my little Doodle.
     
  2. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Prayers sent!!! Has she had any Thiamine injections?? If the vet thinks polio, did he give her any Thiamine? IT IS CRUCIAL that she gets this ASAP.

    I'm also curious as to why the vet feels that sulphur is the culprit? I feed MP minerals freechoice to all my goats and if anything I've seen a vast improvement with each of them, never have had an issue with too much mineral.
     

  3. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I am so sorry you are dealing with this....prayers sent your way... :hug: :pray:
     
  4. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Hmm...I highly, highly doubt it has anything to do with the minerals. I had a sheep that ended up with polio because I was young and didn't know how to feed. It was explained to me that polio is caused by too little roughage and too much grain, creating an imbalance in the rumen that can be deadly.

    Sulfur CAN cause polio, but honestly that is seen in cows not in goats...And a goat is not a cow, but vets generally know next to squat about goats and treat them like cows.

    In goats, polio is almost always caused by a thiamine (Vit. B1) deficiency (usually caused by too much grain, too little roughage as with my sheep.) Luckily, I think polio is pretty treatable with LA200..which is what we used on my sheep and she lived. You are supposed to treat it with thiamine, however. It can also be caused by moldy hay or grain, feeding horse or mule feeds, eating some species of ferns, an overdose of Corid when treating for Cocci (which I refuse to ever use on my goats).

    I would give her Probios as well to help re-populate her with good bacteria, she probably could really use it. Listeriosis looks almost identical to polio, but I assume your vet tested and knows exactly what issue she has. The good thing about both is that complete recovery is definitely possible, moreso in polio victims. If you don't have thiamine or can't get it, I have heard you can give a multiple B vitamin in the capsules for people that you can get at Walmart although the initial dose of thiamine should be with an IV or a shot.
     
  5. nagismom

    nagismom New Member

    125
    Sep 25, 2010
    northern ohio
    He gave her a pretty good IV thiamine push, plus left enough to treat over the next 48. As for feed they get and 18% sheep and goat ration topdressed with a quart of calf manna for the pen of 5 once a day. This is the same thing I've been feeding for years and we've NEVER had an issue. They are given hay twice a day. I like to give a lot of hay(in the winter) so this pen gets a little over half of a 70 LB bale per day. Stored in the loft, never wet, this years hay. We use this vet because the group is VERY well versed when in comes to goats. Matter of fact we switched primary vets for that reason. The ONLY change was the free choice loose mineral instead of mineral blocks. I had him check all the goats and no one else was even remotely sick. He also looked at food labels and hay for me. I've never dealt with polio so I had not a clue as to what caused it. Thanks GOD he not only knew as soon as he saw her but also knew the right questions to ask.
    As for Doodle; she's still alive. It's been 7 hrs...he said the first 24 is crucial. I must say this is the most aweful illness I've ever seen in goats and much like all goat owners I've seen my share (pneumonia, cocci, bloat, etc.) She's so stiff....oh my poor baby...
     
  6. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    :hug: I am so very sorry and hope she turns around soon! It is soooo very hard to see one suffer.
     
  7. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    stiff? that sounds more like tetanus or enterotoxemia then polio

    with Polio they can still move around and they "star gaze" while with tetanus and enterotexemia they go ridged
     
  8. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    Actually, they will go paralyzed with polio. At least my sheep did. When mine got polio, I went down to the barn and she was laying on her side and couldn't get up. She would thrash her legs on one side of her body, but couldn't move the other legs or her head or neck. Her paralyzed legs were very stiff and we had to lay her on top of a hay bale, straddled, so she could eat and drink once she felt a little better. She also went temporarily blind. With an IV and continuing treatment she recovered fully and easily, but the symptoms were really terrifying. I think the total bill was around $300. And she was a market lamb, so I made nothing at fair and she sold in the last pen because she was still too thin and lost muscle from her sickness (she was safe for human consumption.)

    Are you sure she wasn't simply getting bullied out of her hay by the bigger goats? Thus not getting enough? I fed Manna Pro for awhile, but I didn't like the make up. I honestly don't think it has enough of a lot of the minerals and prefer Purina. I have never heard of anyone having a problem with Manna Pro...although absolutely anything can harm a goat if it over-eats it. Actually, probably anything can harm any animal if it over eats something.....so maybe you just have a goat who thinks MP is holiday candy. Maybe a lick only is better because she can't gobble a lick, although my goats never use the lick much because I think it irritates their tongues.
     
  9. nagismom

    nagismom New Member

    125
    Sep 25, 2010
    northern ohio
    Firelight, Thank you, thank you for that last post. It sounded alot like enterotoxemia to me too Stacy...so I called the vet back. He assured me that the paralysis is very common in ADVANCED polio. Oh, I hated hearing that word. She is still alive. She looks dead when she sleeps and cries when awake. He also told me it's not painful just scarey...(I wonder how people know that). Did your lamb have goopey eyes?? Hers had a discharge so I cleaned them out with saline. We're giving her probios and revitilyte by syringe. She also got another injection of the thiamine. How long was it before your lamb could lift her head, lay properly, walk?? Doodle is a 75% alpine/nubian cross in a herd of nubians...she's kinda the queen of the pen. LOL and she's greedy...another reason why I think the loose minerals might be the culprit. I should also say that I've been using manna pro as a top dress for the BOYS for 2 years and I haven't had a problem with stones. They both look amazing and so did our market wethers. SO I thought it would be good to switch the girls to it free choice over the winter. Why can't I ever learn...if it ain't broke don't fix it. Thank you all so much for the prayers.
     
  10. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    I think it was several days before my lamb could get up and walk around (its been years), but then she was blind so I had to go to the barn constantly to put the water bucket under her nose to make sure she was drinking and I had to sit with her to eat because she was jumpy unless I was there. But she did regain her sight after a few weeks, and it doesn't sound like yours is blind at this point. I don't think mine had any eye discharge, but a I can't really remember. We took her to the vet and left her there for a couple of days before she came home.

    Don't feel bad about switching up the minerals. I try new things with my herd all the time to see if anything will be an improvement over another product. Generally you don't have any issues with things like this, but goats can be unpredictable and crazy. When I first switched to Purina minerals my goats ate it like candy, which made me feel like they were deficient while on their previous minerals. But I never had a problem with them getting sick, even during their initial pig out fest. I just put a little at a time in their feeder until they got over the novelty of it and stopped scarfing it down. Now I put as much as they will eat in three or four days in the feeder at a time.
     
  11. nagismom

    nagismom New Member

    125
    Sep 25, 2010
    northern ohio
    Well, Doodle is still alive. She waggs her tail, moves her head and can bend her front legs. Vet increased the thiamine dose and gave me an antibiotic. Other than that she hasn't improved as much as I had hoped. I'm syringe feeding her every two hours around the clock. 74 hours in and I'm exhausted. I pray each time I walk down the steps that she'll be sitting up chewing her cudd...I started giving her alfalfa cubes soaked in water in small mouthfuls; which she'll chew... I don't know what to do. As long as she's fighting I want to fight with her. When is enough, enough?? At this point what am I fighting to save?? I don't want to prolong the inevitable. Has anyone got a kid through that has been down this long???
    Today when I did evening chores (normally my favorite time of the day) I just wanted to cry. All the other other animals are their normal happy, silly selves...It's funny they know when we're sad. Emmy, one of my heavily pregnant girls, walked over and put her head between my arm and waist and kept looking at me. Not so unusal for most, but Em is shy and has ALWAYS been the last to greet me....even after a hug she kept watching my face. Sorry, I'm really down and just needed to ramble.
     
  12. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    I am so, so, sorry......my little guy I lost last week didn't make it as long as your girl, so I have no advice. I do know what you mean about wanting to cry......I have cried off and on for a week now, I think today was the first day I have not had a crying spell. This morning I went out early and just sat in the straw under the heat lamp and spent time with my remaining boys.....I swear these creatures know more than we give them credit for......Bones came over this morning and climbed in my lap and I talked to him about his buddy Murphy and I swear he listened and understood my every word. He looked me straight in the eye while I was talking to him about Murphy and explained that Murph couldn't and wasn't coming back.
    I will say a prayer for your girl....it is so hard to watch one suffer.
     
  13. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I know how hard it is to see any critter that is sick and just not their normal healthy self, Polio is a very disturbing illness to treat, not only with the amount of time it takes to get the slightest positive improvement but also with the way it affects us seeing them in such a miserable way. Doodle sounds like she's a fighter and those improvements she's shown are proof that she is responding to your care and treatment. It's been 3 days and I would see this as a plus, she's not going to be "normal" overnight, it will take time.
    Maybe this is a good time to tell you that I had an experience almost a year ago similar to what you are going through now. My then 5 month old Penny was found the day after Christmas staggering around like she was drunk, her eyes were dancing around frantically and she had this bad tilt to her head...I immediately gave her activated charcoal gel thinking that she had gotten a toxic weed in the hay and contacted Stacey..our heads together we figured on Polio, I am lucky enough to have a goat buddy close by..Penny's breeder...she had B Complex and a good bottle of Pen G because mine was expired. Penny was started on high dose injections of B Comp and Pen every 6 hours, I have to work early in the mornings and thankfully, I am able to function on 3 hours of sleep...vet was out 2 days later..this happened on a Saturday, he was here Monday and said that we had saved her life with being on top of the problem. He also said that because she had the neurological issue with her eyes and co-ordination that it was possibly Listeria or mold toxicity..which giving the charcoal and the Pen G thwarted any further damage. Penny was eating and drinking but had some brain damage, she had seizures when it got dark outside, after the first one, I was questioning wether or not I should have her put down because these were very stressful on her and me..I cried because I was at a loss as far as how to "fix" her. I ended up putting a night light on a dusk to dawn timer and after almost 2 monthsof the night light, I unplugged it to see how she reacted. She did great, no seizure. She still has a little tilt to her head and acts like a window licker but she has done awesome....well enough for me to be comfortable with having her bred to kid with my first kids of 2011. I pray that Doodle continues showing you those improvements, even if it means you lose some sleep and need a good cry, she's a fighter and as long as she continues on a positive road, I don't think you need to worry about her suffering. Keep your chin up and look for those improvements to continue, she'll let you know when she can't fight anymore.
     
  14. firelight27

    firelight27 Hopelessly Addicted

    Apr 24, 2009
    Southern Oregon
    When my lamb had it, she couldn't do a lot, but she wanted to eat and drink. It is a slow thing to come back from, but they can and do make full recoveries, so don't give up yet. As long as she is wanting to eat then she has enough desire to live that she should get every chance. Hang in there, it can be very hard, but she will appreciate it in the long run.
     
  15. milkmaid

    milkmaid I'm not addicted - I'm in love!

    Praying that your Doodle soon recovers - and that you can survive this ordeal. :pray:
     
  16. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Hi, I notice that a lot of people on the board have great answers for you!

    Speaking from experience, yes the Polio can (if advanced) bring on full stiffness, sorta like a fainting goat. And yes, it's a Thiamine related imbalance. I've found there are many causes.
    My friend has a doe that gets it every summer when it starts to get hot... we just make sure to keep it on hand and try to keep her Thiamine up preventatively. In her case I think she is just plain sensitive to her Thiamine levels, it's never mattered what she was fed or what she did...she just gets too hot sometimes & boom we start to see her stumble a bit and we're on it right away with the Thiamine.

    We had a doe go down with Polio during fair this summer...My goat vet came & treated her with a Thiamine IV, and left the owners with a bottle and directions to keep it going for quite awhile...they determined it was from feed change (at fair the didnt have goat feed so they gave her wet COB, big no-no! No sweet feeds!), stress, and heat. In addition, Polio can cause seizure like behavior, blindness, decreased appetite, stiffness, head turned back awkwardly, etc. Keep maintaining the Thiamine...I'm sure she'll eventually come around...it just takes a long time.
    ** Please note - B Vitamins are water soluble, meaning they just pee out whatever their body doesnt need. I.E. they can't be over dosed, so err on the side of too much rather than too little!

    I have heard of the sulfur idea, but I've NEVER heard anyone ever suggest it's because of minerals! I've known goats who literally ate a bag of Purina Goat minerals and they certainly didn't get Polio. ??? I do not think Sulfur or your minerals are the issue in this case, and I also think that taking away the minerals would cause MUCH more of a problem with ALL the goaties....so I don't see it being an effective answer.

    Here's some articles for you that might help:

    http://www.goatworld.com/articles/liste ... gwmf.shtml

    http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... ins06.html

    I'm sorry that your having to go through this. It's so frustrating not knowing if everything will be okay...but all of my experiences with Polio have turned out alright in the end, so I will send good vibes and prayers your way, so that your special goatie can get better too. :)
    All my best wishes for a safe recovery.
     
  17. rocky_ridge_goats

    rocky_ridge_goats New Member

    96
    Aug 6, 2010
    I'll pray too! Doodle can use all of the help she gets.
     
  18. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
  19. Mandoziz

    Mandoziz New Member

    31
    Aug 4, 2010
    I hope she's feeling better!

    Is it true that top dressing the feed with BOSS will help prevent goat polio?
     
  20. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA

    I hope she continues to improve :pray:

    Feeding BOSS adds selenium and vit E as well as fats to the diet, polio is caused by a thiamine deficiency which is mainly caused by an upset in the natural function of the rumen, all goats make their own B vitamins through the food they eat, when something causes a gut upset, it also may cause polio by interfering with natural thiamine production.