Possibly Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Bellafire Farm, Mar 19, 2010.

  1. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Looking for help and advice ... I have searched the forum here and I know that others have had success treating Silent Pneumonia and/or Pasturella but I'm looking for the specific treatments. We show together and it's coming to light that last year at shows we must have picked up this cold/chronic cough, slight runny nose, that lightly seems to come and go with no fevers. With the weather changes of spring here, it has reared it's ugly head in force and we now believe we are dealing with Pasturella. We had been told before that the one or two animals that had a faint winter cough were just suffering from some "lung scarring" from the cold they got after the show... this does NOT seem to be the case, as now after a year another buck has gotten it who was not shown or with those that showed.
    Thank you so much in advance... They've already lost one buck today he was fine just 2 days ago and this morning gone. So any help is very much appreciated.

    Aeromycin Cumbles on the feed:
    How long do we do this for? Package recommends no more than 5 days for Calves, and I understood that I was to use the directions/amounts for Calves, not sheep or swine.
    Directions for calves = Feeding Directions: Feed 4 Ounces Per 100 Lb Bodyweight Daily. Feed For Not More Than Five Days.

    Next we're looking into doing an antibody:
    Probably Bovi-Sera Serum, as recommended by another breeder... I know this is a very controversial issue giving antibody serum's... but if anyone here has any positive experience with Pasturella I'd like to hear it please. Or if you know of another antibody that may work with Pasturella, I'd love to know.

    Then once the animals are back on track, we'd like to vaccinate with:

    Pasteurella (Pneumonia) Vaccine by Colorado Serum called "Mannheimia Haemolytica-Pasteurella Multocida Bacterin"


    My questions that I am DESPERATELY searching for answers are related to dosages, how many days to give these medications, and ANY other helpful information regarding recovery from Silent Pneumonia and/or Pasturella .
    We also have babies, pre-weaning age (from birth - 10 weeks old) and up to 6 year old doe's... so can everyone eat the crumbles and get the shots or ???
     
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    On iPod will get to computer soon where typing is easier but just want to say that been in your shoes and I will let you know what worked for me
     

  3. citylights

    citylights Member

    824
    Jul 3, 2009
    Southern California
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    I have not vaccinated for past. yet, but I will this year. Here's how I handle them when I think they are battling pnuem.

    EITHER Biomycin OR Nuflor at 1 cc/ 25lbs. I do it subq and then Banamine to reduce inflammation in the lungs. 1 cc/ 100 lbs.

    Remember Pateurella is a bacteria and they can just keep passing it back and forth. You need to disinfect feed bowls, feeders, etc. Or put themout in the sun when it's hot out. I also will spray down my stalls with a light disinfecct as well...

    I'm eager to here what Stacey has to say.... Good luck
     
  4. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Ok, so I've had some time to go through my extremely detailed notes on each of my goats...

    Since show season last summer...

    All of my goats that were on the show scene came back with a nasty cold that I just couldn't get rid of until i tried a Vitamin/Mineral/Electrolyte drench with extra Vitamin C and Vitamin B Complex in it. This drench finally got the cold (which had spred to everyone in the herd) under control. It seemed to work wonders and I have been VERY pleased with it.

    Literally at the tail end of getting this cold under control I purchased two animals, one doeling & one adult buck from a farm in Southern California that uses Bovi-Sera religiously when they feel it's necessary...such as kidding, weaning, prevention of shipping fever, before shows, etc. (Not excessively mind you...but when necessary).

    So now with everything that is going on... I decided to go through my records and see what exactly I've been doing all winter for treatments (I guess when you don't look at the WHOLE picture it's hard to see the obvious signs)
    My excessively detailed notations indicate that I have given this drench whenever I saw sniffles or weepy eyes coming on....which has worked out to about every 3 weeks all winter long since Sept. 1st...that's 6 full months now. Every goat in my herd has needed this little pick-me-up EXCEPT for two goats, who have never been sick a moment since I got them... Guess which one's??? The two that received Bovi-Serum have never been sick at all, not ever for a second, all winter long...while the goats all around them all experienced forms of slight sniffles, slight cough, or the onset of weepy eyes...
    So I researched more into Bovi-Sera and this is it's description:
    (Colorado Serum)
    Arcanobacterium Pyogenes - Escherichia Coli - Mannheima Haemolytica - Pasteurella Multocida - Salmonella Typhimurium - Antibody Bovine Origin
    For use as an aid in the prevention and treatment of enteric and respiratory conditions caused by the micro-organisms named in cattle and sheep. Inject SQ or IM.


    And here is the information on the Pasturella Vaccine:
    (Colorado Serum)
    For vaccination of healthy goats, sheep and cattle as an aid in the prevention of pneumonia caused by Mannheimia haemolytica and Pasteurella multocida. Inject 2 ml SQ and repeat in 2-4 weeks. 21-day slaughter withdrawal.


    So now, how could I have not seen that I was actually dealing with Pasturella/Pneumonia??? I feel like such an idiot. All I have been doing all winter is keeping it at bay by upping my goats immune systems...but not really fixing the actual problem!
    But I am so happy that I keep such completely detailed notes on each goatie. Or I wouldn't have even figured this out.

    Guess I won't knock the Bovi-Serum from now on. Everyone has their own opinion and I guess now mine has changed a bit regarding the antibody stuff. I'm sure those owners that swear by it have probably had very similar experiences to mine, and have seen proof of it's effectiveness.

    And also, Stacey, thank you so much for the quick reply... we have babies that are ready to wean and go to new homes soon and we'd like to get this under control before they leave. Certainly don't want anyone getting ill once they leave the herd.

    We've now purchased this particular Aureomycin 4G Crumbles product from our feed store - states Aureo 4 g contains 4 grams of Chlortetracycline per lb (Here's a link to the identical product):
    http://www.kennelsupplyllc.com/store/su ... mbles.html

    Any help or tips on who can or can't eat it (babies, pregnant doe's, etc)... and how long to feed it for, and at what dose... would be WONDERFUL!! Also if the vaccine can be given to pregnant doe's...we do have a few that are recently bred, so maybe we should wait until they are atleast 45 days into their pregnancy???

    Also, as the goats get over this "cold" and are healthier, then we should go ahead and do the Paturella Vaccine, right? Should we wait for the entire herd to be healthy, or just give the vaccine as soon as each animal is healthy?
     
  5. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Thank you CityLights for your input. Biomycin is about the only antibiotic I keep on hand. It's so much better than SO many others out there. I just really prefer not to do shots. I know that sounds terrible but my goats hate me for weeks when I have to give shots, so a crumble would be perfect, as long as it has the appropriate effect. If not, then shots will definitely be done (and I'll be in the dog house! LOL!).
    It seems that the west coast has gotten hit hard the past two years with Pneumonia / Pasturella. I've heard about it from a LARGE variety of west coast farms now. Plus I think it's something that is really starting to get noticed, and was probably mis-diagnosed a lot in the past... just as ours was. Even the veterinary community thought it was scars in the lungs, and that's why we experienced a faint lingering cough.
    Very odd how so many veterinarians really don't know much about goats. ??? Not that I am knocking vets at all. They have saved many an animal for us, but for the goats...well I find that I'm much better on my own or atleast working side by side with a good vet.
     
  6. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Oh..so sorry your dealing with this....I dealt with it last spring when I brought home a 12 wk old buckling that had it (ignorant me) and then gave it to my other new young wether......I did not think they would ever get over it! It's been a year now and the one still has a bit of a cough, vet was out and said not to worry as long as there is no change (like cough gets worse) or other symptoms appear, he says lung scaring also......I will tell you that I did give the Bovi-Sera, being relativly new to goats....I knew nothing of the controversy and I called and spoke with Ann at Hoeggers she very much recommended it......Now I can not tell you if it helped or the boys were already on the road to recovery, I gave it to them when I didn't feel like I was seeing as much improvement as I wanted and they had been seen by the vet, been on antibiotics (first Excede and then switched to Draxxin) and banamine.....my boys did run high fevers with it in the beginning. My guys had the worse thick white snot in the beginning also. I was so new with goats and ignorant that I just did what my vet said.....but my boys made it and are pretty healthy at this point.

    I will share with you, I gave them both 3 chewable vit. C's everyday to help boost their immune system, I gave them nutri-drench also (now I have been told that lots of continuous nutri-drench is not good, it can burn their throat :shrug: ...don't know if it's true or not) I had already gone through like 3 bottles before I was told that....and I gave them something else that has left my mind at the moment :ponder: , to help boost them.

    During this time my vet gave all 4 of my boys a Pasturella Vacc, he gave them one that was drops up their nose, even the already sick ones got it.

    I hope this helps and pray your friends goats get better soon, dealing with this is so frustrating! :hug:
     
  7. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Yes, like Denise (City Lights) said......I cleaned and cleaned! I disinfected their feed dishes every time they ate and the water buckets daily.

    Also, I have to add that my sickest little guy that still has just a bit of a cough, usually after he eats is my healthiest goat.....he and my other little guy recieved the Bovi-Sera.....they both seem to be pretty healthy.
     
  8. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    You probably read this thread already but I found it very informative: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1425
     
  9. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Hi guys - firstly, thank you for the replies...I really appreciate people taking the time to help. It means a lot. :thankU:

    And yes, that was exactly the post that I was searching for and had read before...but of course couldn't find when the going got tough. I've re-read it and still don't see any specifics on dosages and length of time to give it though. Anyone who does see it, please let me know.

    As for disinfecting, I'm pretty good about completely washing out the buckets every week, and I always dump out any left over food (not that it happens ever) but maybe we should do a better job or atleast more often. ???

    We'll definitely be doing the vaccine though. I can't speak for my sister-in-law but I'm sure losing the first buck she purchased would be really hard... especially since he was polled, blue eyed, and had pretty little waddles for jewelry. Plus this year he passed on some beautiful kids, luckily one gorgeous little look-alike doeling too!
     
  10. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    First off I used the crumbles with no good results for months -- so I switched to oxytetracycline for 5 days (LA 200, Duramycin, Biomycin etc).

    I had to do it for a full 5 days every day because if I stopped one day to soon or did every other day it never worked. I dealt with this for 4 months it was awful. Never got any milk from my does and had to dry them up prematurely it was real sad since I was so looking forward to milking.

    I recommend the pasturella vaccine -- I too dont like vaccinating if I can help it. But when I purchased two goats from a breeder in TN and one had been given the pasturella vaccine and the other hadn't and everyone got sick but the one who got the vaccine I was set on giving it.

    The thing is you have to wait till they are 100% before giving the vaccine or it isn't as effective. You need to give a booster 2 weeks later (read the bottle it might be 3 weeks).

    Hope that helps
     
  11. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Sorry to be so late in checking back up on this Stacey, was visiting with family in town.

    So did you give the medicated crumbles to kids and pregnant or lactating doe's too? Do you remember what dosage you gave it? We were told to do 4oz. per 100lbs (I think) or whatever the calves dosage was.

    Is Biomycin ok for kids (maybe 2 weeks old - 10 weeks old)? How about pregnant doe's?

    Also if some of the goats seem fine and show no symptoms of illness at all, then should we go ahead and vaccinate them now?

    So no luck with the crumbles huh? Darn, and we just bought a whole 50# bag, luckily it was reduced to about $20 instead of $40.

    And how is your herd now? Do they still come down with a cold or are they seeming to be all cured from this nasty bacteria? I'm wondering if those that have already come down with this pneumonia will be as positively affected by the vaccine?
    Do you remember doing anything else like Vitamin C or other supp's?

    Thank you so much for your help! Very much appreciated.
     
  12. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    I tried everything -- nutri drench, vitamin C (they wouldnt eat it and I wasnt about to crush tablets up and syringe feed it so I gave up on that). I tried VetRx.

    I dont remember how much I gave of the crumbles but I weighed it out and it was a crazy amount if you feed according to the calf amount so I gave less then that but either way I dont think it was effective or would have been since mine were so sick.

    I am sick with a head cold so I dont feel like doing much research back into it.

    Basically what you need to do is treat everyone with Biomycin (since you said you have that) for 5 days. 1cc per 20lbs once a day. Then give everyone the vaccine once coughing is over. YOu will probably notice the coughing stop at like day 3 - continue treatment because if you dont it will just come back in a week or less time. believe me been there done that, not worth the time effort and money to shorten the time.

    If you have some with no cough then yes you can give the vaccine if you are sure they wont be coming down with it.


    NO one has had a cough since the vaccine -- we will see how it goes with the spring and if it rears its ugly head. I plan on vaccinating again before showing.

    OH and yes I gave it to pregnant goats and to kids but dont remember the age -- I think they were a couple months old by the time I was giving antibiotics. You can give penicillin to the younger kids if they are coughing. 1cc per 10lbs for 5 -7 days.


    Yes they will hate you -- just bring a long lots of treats and give them some before and after the shots. They learn to forgive you. for less then a week it really is worth it in the end. Take it from someone who delt with this from eary August to the end of December before it was all over -- very important to just deal with the minor issues of goats being scare then dead or coughing for the rest of your life and not being able to show.


    oh and the strain of pasturella I was dealing with didnt carry a fever with it - so for a while I wasnt sure if I was dealing with a bacterial infection or lung worms or what. But once I was seeing their backends lifting off the ground as they coughed -- well I decided this was more then just a cold or lung worms.


    *shives* I forgot how upsetting this was, talking about it brings back the memories and feelings.

    Good luck - hope you can have a cough free barn soon.
     
  13. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Gosh, our didn't have any fever at all either (that we've noticed), and they just have this little, irritating, cough... like one or two coughs..then their fine for a few hours or a day or so. I thought lungworms for a long time too, but we've wormed to kingdom-come, and it's made absolutely NO dent (except in our pocketbook!!). And then the buck was fine one night and dead the next...I just feel so bad that we didn't jump on this sooner. We went with the whole advice of "scar tissue" and I just don't think that's it. Now others have snotty noses and runny eyes, but nothing significantly bad or alarming... but then again, I really think that the vitamin/mineral/electrolyte drench probably just boosted up the immune systems and put the little bacteria into hiding again... only to come back within a few weeks.
    I'll copy this post to my sister-in-law, maybe she can take back the unopened bag of crumbles she bought today. I know she also bought Biomycin. Can Biomycin be given IM?
     
  14. Bellafire Farm

    Bellafire Farm New Member

    810
    Jan 5, 2010
    NW Oregon
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Oh, P.S. to Stacey -
    Maybe you should check into some Vitamin drench too? LOL!
    Don't forget to take care of yourself..get some rest, some juice or hot tea... We'll survive if you take a day off to recoup...promise! We won't do anything bad or break anything at all! :wink:
    My kids favorite sayings... "I didn't do it!" or "I don't know" - as in, "I don't know how the goats got out!" :shrug:
     
  15. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    thanks -- yah I've been laying low the last couple days for other reasons and now well the cold has me beat

    why I am up at 2am? because Im crazy and should be in bed

    off to sleep :ZZZ:
     
  16. citylights

    citylights Member

    824
    Jul 3, 2009
    Southern California
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Traci -- I've heard the "scar tissue" or "allergy" from my vets, but my vets are primarily equine vets, and I don't believe it. After I got all my goats cleared up from the coughs (no temps here either), I went back to the vets and here's what they said --

    Past. lives in the goats respiratory tract, much like cocci or e coli in the gut, but usually the goat handles it okay til their immune system gets stressed and then they succumb to it -- ie shipping fever. And, I believe that's when they are also most likely to spread it, when the bacteria gets out of control in their body. My vet called it fulminating pastereulla.

    So after I was done with a horrible bout after a fair, and everyone had resolved except for one or two animals. They persisted with sort of a dry, non productive cough. With the advice of the vet -- who thought maybe it was just permanently irritated after all the coughing, I mixed up a steroid solution and dropped in down their noses for several days....

    I used 1/10 cc (on a TB syringe) to 15 cc's of saline solution. I used a sterile contact lens solution. AND IT WORKED!!!!!!!

    I still intend to vaccinate before show season, though. Good luck!
     
  17. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Denise.....that is very interesting....forgive me, but what is a TB syringe?

    So please bare with me....what exactly did you use and how did you mix it? I still have my one little guy that coughs every now and then after having Pas. last spring, I love my vet.....but I get what your saying about them, mine gave me the whole scaring in the throat/lungs thing to.....I might try what you did!

    I plan on vacc them this week for Pas., my vet used a vacc last year that was drops we used in the nose.

    Thanks for sharing!
     
  18. citylights

    citylights Member

    824
    Jul 3, 2009
    Southern California
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    The TYB syringe is that little tiny 1cc syringe -- I guess it's an insulin syringe too... SHoot I forgot to say what I used, didn't I?

    I used 1/10 of 1cc of dexamethasone mixed with 15cc's of a sterile contacts lens rinse solution and put the drops up the goats' noses. I was shocked. It really knocked down the chronic coughers. Obviously it didn't "cure" the pasteurella, but it quieted everyone down!
     
  19. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    Where can I get the dexamethasone...is it a RX? and how many drops per goat?

    Thanks so much for the info!
     
  20. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Re: Possible Pasturella ?? Pneumonia? Cough? How to treat??

    yes Dex is an RX

    you are talking about 1cc syringes - you can purchase them from Jeffers. They are marked in units. 10 units is 1cc