Pseudomonas in doeling

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by wookiee, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. wookiee

    wookiee New Member

    100
    Oct 26, 2009
    My three doelings came down with a persistent cough after I took them somewhere to get tattooed. They were otherwise completely normal, good poops, eating and growing well. So I waited to see if it would work its way through, like most kids, and when one doeling came down with a fever 105, I called the vet and treated per their instructions with PenG and Banamine. After that course of antibiotics, one of the three doelings seemed totally fine, one was still dry coughing and one was back to wet coughing. I then tried a five day course of Naxcel, but even before that course was done, the worse doeling was back with a 107 degree fever.

    I took the two remaining sick doelings (now 4 months old) to the vet immediately and he cultured the worse doe and sent the samples to UNH and Cornell. They came back positive for pseudomonas and negative for mycoplasma (thank goodness!).

    He did some research and he said pseudomonas was resistant to Naxcel/Excenel/Exceed and he couldn't legally use Baytril on the goats so we are trying a 1-2 punch of Amikacin and Nuflor, 7 dose course of each.

    The better of the two doelings is doing well with the treatment and I am confident she will kick it. The worse doeling is better but still coughing half way through treatment. My vet feels like this is our last chance, if she cannot beat it with this combo of drugs, she will likely need to be culled.

    I am scared and sad that I might lose my girl.

    I guess I am looking to see if anyone else has any experience with pseudomonas (this strain is NOT the strain which causes mastitis) and have they successfully beat it. Is there anything else we can try??
     
  2. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    I found this website... has some good tips for meds to treat Puedomonas... though your vet seem to have it down. :) I hope they pull through for you!
     

  3. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
     
  4. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I have never experienced it before.. :( ..but I am sending prayers.. your way.... :pray: :hug:
     
  5. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    [quote="wookiee"

    He did some research and he said pseudomonas was resistant to Naxcel/Excenel/Exceed and he couldn't legally use Baytril on the goats so we are trying a 1-2 punch of Amikacin and Nuflor, 7 dose course of each.

    [/quote]

    I don't understand that. My doe was just put on it BY MY VET. That is weird.
     
  6. wookiee

    wookiee New Member

    100
    Oct 26, 2009
    it IS weird, I agree. He wanted to use it and then when he came back three days later after research he said he couldn't use it. He is a former goat breeder (Oberhaslis) so he knows goats well, although he doesn't have as many in his practice anymore.

    The website posted above says Excenel was effective against Pseudomonas and I have some, maybe I should give that as well. This doeling is otherwise totally healthy and playing/growing. In fact, she is the boss of the little doeling herd and does not suffer fools! It is a tragedy that this stupid cough might end her life when she is so obviously otherwise healthy.
     
  7. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    I think is what he probably meant was that is was not "labeled" for goats - but that does not mean that it is illegal to use.

    Hope they get better for you :)
     
  8. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    You know I wonder if this is what my doe had. She had the 106.7 temp for days. I could not get it down and I started her on Excenel and it was worthless. It is the Baytril that has worked. I will have to look into it.
     
  9. wookiee

    wookiee New Member

    100
    Oct 26, 2009
    Definitely possible, but the way he phrased it to me was if he gave it to me, he could go to jail and he didn't want to go to jail that day. Maybe it was a joke.

    I wonder if pseudomonas is more common than we think. A lot of goats move through the place where my girls got it, I think. One of my girls basically got better on her own, one got better with more powerful stuff, and the last one just can't seem to kick it. The last one was the only one who ever had a fever. Everyone else just had a persistent cough.
     
  10. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Wow Lori...it could be... :hug:
     
  11. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    It is.

    Flouroquinalones, a class of antibiotic of which enrofloxacin (Baytril) is a member, is strictly prohibited for use in food-producing animals....except for Baytril 100 injectable.

    Uhhhhh, wha?

    Yeah, I know...makes no sense when you first read it.

    Basically, the class of drug that Baytril's in really is prohibited for use in food-producing animals -- for the most part. The only exception is Baytril 100, which is approved to treat 'Bovine Respiratory Disease' in beef cattle -- and that's precisely as far as the approval goes. Only that condition, and only in beef cattle.

    Not even dairy cattle.. It's not even allowed in the medicine cabinet on dairy farms.

    Can't be used on veal calves. Can't even be used on replacement heifers, apparently..

    And absolutely, positively not sheep, goats, swine, poultry, etc..

    If you're sitting there scratching yer head right now going...but why?!??...like I was when I first learned all this, I have a little theory about it that can just about be summed up in one word:

    CIPRO.

    Remember the "anthrax bomber" and all that? Yeah...Cipro was the only thing that would touch it. Cipro happens to be ciprofloxacin.. Baytril is enrofloxacin. Baytril is basically the same as Cipro, but for animals.

    The concern -- as I understand it -- is that the misuse/overuse of flouroquinalones in food producing animals will leave humans high and dry when it comes to serious antibiotic-resistant supergerms....like pseudomonas aeruginosa....which is apparently popping up in hospitals with alarming frequency these days.

    In other words...I think we're saving Baytril for us.
     
    Treva Brodt likes this.
  12. wookiee

    wookiee New Member

    100
    Oct 26, 2009
    Completely fascinating! Thanks for posting that! It's a bummer Baytril is not an option, but the alternative of these super bugs is even scarier.

    In fact, the reason I waited so long to get a culture is because my vet is very resistant to using antibiotics and blamed my current pseudomonas problem on rampant antibiotic use in goat breeders. Of course, he is/was a goat breeder...

    Anyway, when I called him about a cough he said as long as it was just a cough to wait it out. When the fever struck one or the girls, we went into action.
     
  13. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    Yeah, I pretty much try to use antibiotics only when there's a fever or when I know for sure that there's a bacterial infection in progress. I know A LOT of people, though, who run straight for the antibiotics as soon as they see a goat that looks a little bit off. Could be worms, coccidia, dietary upset, anything -- they try antibiotics first, and if/when that doesn't work, THEN they start looking into what the problem might be.

    Anyway... :GAAH:

    I've been looking into an antibiotic called Gallimycin 100 injectable lately.. It's injectable erythromycin, 100mg/ml, and can be purchased OTC in 100ml vials from Jeffers Livestock for like $15 -- very cheap. I knew it was supposed to be pretty good for common pneumonia and upper respiratory infections, so I thought -- in response to reading this thread -- that I'd do a bit of googling to see if it's helpful at all against pseudomonas aeruginosa.

    Oddly enough, it seems to be...somewhat, anyway. :scratch:

    Check out this link, and do some googling of your own on erythromycin and pseudomonas aeruginosa.. Not saying it's a surefire cure or anything like that, but to me...well, I think it looks kinda promising. Perhaps Gallimycin might be worth at least discussing with your vet, if they're open to that sort of thing.

    :)

    EDIT: Just looked up Amikacin -- :thumb:

    Apparently, they use it in hospital-acquired cases of pseudomonas aeruginosa in humans, so it must be pretty stout stuff.
     
  14. wookiee

    wookiee New Member

    100
    Oct 26, 2009
    Thanks, I will do some research on this, and my vet is open to trying things. He's just doubtful that if this cocktail doesn't work, anything else will.

    From what I understand, this strain is not aeruginosa, but I don't have the exact name. I need to run by and pick up the lab results. I am hoping, however, that all the pseudomonas strains will basically respond the same.

    You've been very helpful! I don't want to lose hope, but I also don't want to keep throwing antibiotics at the problem, especially since this is my herd, my farm, and my home where these critters live. If she can't get well, maybe she has an underlying issue. The other two girls got well. Just so many unknowns. I am not sure if we really understand how these bugs work. And looking up respiratory pseudomonas in goats exposes a dearth of information.
     
  15. wookiee

    wookiee New Member

    100
    Oct 26, 2009
  16. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    WOW...never even heard of that, and I'm a serious nerd when it comes to this kind of thing.

    Quick investigation turns up something interesting, though.. From the gold-standard in reliable information, Wikipedia:

    "Although co-trimoxazole has been generally considered the drug of choice for Burkholderia cepacia infections ceftazidime, doxycycline, piperacillin and meropenem are considered to be viable alternative options in cases where co-trimoxazole cannot be administered because of hypersensitivity reactions, intolerance or resistance."

    Co-timoxazole is trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole...also known to goat-folk as the Rx coccidiostat/antibiotic combo SMZ-TMP.

    Not sure if that's the way to go here, but...well, if the vet throws his hands up and says "Sorry, can't help you!"......there may be options w/ regard to the SMZ-TMP.

    Weird diagnosis, though.. Hate to hear that. :(
     
  17. wookiee

    wookiee New Member

    100
    Oct 26, 2009
    cmjust0,
    I'v been pondering your SMZ-TMP comment for a couple of days. I have that exact cocci meds for my young kids. However, when my Vet was going through his research phase, he said SMZs were effective but that you can't use them because of the rumen. Since SMZs are obviously used often in young kids, perhaps when the rumen is not well developed, is there a reason you shouldn't use them in older kids or adults?

    As for my doelings, both are doing very well. I've talked with a couple of people who seem to have the same thing and we're all noticing some of the same after-affects. The less sick doeling is 100%, no cough, no snotty face. The worse doeling *looks* and *feels* better, you can tell she is well and she has no snotty face, but a dry cough remains. It's less often and not as long, but still there. We have noticed that they are very sensitive to irritants, like mold. In hot, humid New England summers, hay left on the ground molds in 36 hours, but if I stay on top of it and clean up, there's hardly any coughing at all.

    So *knock on wood*, my doelings have kicked it with this particular cocktail and if they are allowed to recover in a less irritating environment, their lungs will eventually go back to normal. I weighed them the other day and they are at or above weight expectations for their age, so they have not failed to thrive or any other signs of chronic illness.

    Just more information, in case others search for this thread.

    Thank you very much for your help, cmjust0. I always enjoy your posts.
     
  18. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    237
    Oct 8, 2009
    I've read before that the rumen does something...weird...to trimethoprim, but I've never quite been able to nail down exactly what happens. Some references say it's rendered useless by the rumen, whereas others say it ends up concentrated in the rumen juice and doesn't really get absorbed/dispersed as well throughout the body..

    I'm actually inclined to believe that it's just not being absorbed A) as well, or B) AT ALL, rather than believing that it's just immediately inactivated. I say that simply because SMZ-TMP is *known* to be effective in cases of bacterial enteritis in ruminants, and if the TMP part never made it past the rumen...that probably wouldn't be the case.

    But, that may also just mean it makes it on past the rumen into the rest of the GI, making it effective against *gut bugs* -- and nothing else.

    Cool that you've got a vet who's looked into it, though. Oh...and something else to consider is that there are injectable preparations of SMZ-TMP. :)
     
  19. Mon Reve Farm

    Mon Reve Farm New Member

    612
    Jun 25, 2010
    Southern DE
    Very interesting thread but to interject a little humor...

    I have never heard of "Amikacin" sounds like I need to get a lawyer and file a grievance for use of my name or maybe a kickback!! LOL :ROFL:
     
  20. lottsagoats1

    lottsagoats1 Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2014
    Middle Maine
    I know this is an old thread, but I just found it when I was looking for info on pseudomonas. I am going to be speaking to my vet about ordering the medications. I bought a small herd of dairy goats from a well respected herd, however I didn't get them from the breeder. The one I bought them from had bought them at a going out of business sale (health reason for the owner). What I didn't know (actually it just wasn't shared with me when I asked) was she had been buying up goats from all over to open a dairy. She only cared about color. She added a doe that had 3 or 4 types of pneumonia, one of which was Pseudomonas. I got the herd and some got sick. I had them quarantined, so my original herd did not get the Pseudomonas infection. Because they just showed signs of pneumonia, I treated them and they appeared to be fine. The girl I got them form said the vet did a culture and diagnosed a staph and a strep pneumonia. That was late fall of 2017. I didn't breed them until fall of 2018. They are now kidding and I have lost 5 of the 6 kids born. All but 1 of the dead were stillborn, the live one died within 12 hours and never appeared sick. The only living one is healthy and doing well. I contacted her again, and found that the vet had also found Pseudomonas and told her to cull heavily after she lost ALL her kids, ALL her bucks and a high % of her does!

    I tried to get a copy of the results from her vet, so luck. She refuses to help, as she is not my vet and seemed put out that I got these goats from the seller she had told to cull.

    Now, I have to decide which antibiotic(s) is best for my herd. Sigh. I have so much tied up in that newer herd, this loss of kids and sales is killing me.

    Fortunately, my original herd is kidding and having their usual large, healthy kids.
     
    Sfgwife likes this.