Questions about deformed babies.

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by sweetgoats, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    OK, Let me give you a quick history on Hope.

    She is 4 years old and she is the one that I pulled from mom 20 hours after her brother and sister were born. She was not alive but out of anger I kind of threw her hard on the floor and that did start her back up. She is the only bottle baby I have ever had.
    She had no sack or placenta when I pulled her. How was she alive? Only by the Grace of God. :angel: She stunk like rotten flesh.

    Anyway. OK she was bred at a year old and I had no idea at all that she had been bred. Well she aborted the fetus, (wow that was scary when you have no idea that she was pregnant and she had this black thing hanging from her). This was before I met these great groups.
    Anyway, so she was fine after that.
    Then she was bred 5 months later, and she had twins (doe and Buck) that were perfect and fine. That is when she was 2 years old.
    Then last year she was bred and she had twin boys again. OK all fine Except one was born well I can not say deformed but it looked like he died I do not know a while before they were ready to be born. He had hair but was REALLY small, like not even a pound. The other one was just fine and we still have him now.

    OK yesterday she kidded again and she had again a dead one that was a little bigger then the dead one last year. It might of been 1-1/2 to 2 pounds. But the other Buck is fine.

    Does anyone have any ideas about this? I have Never had this happen to any other doe but her. She is fed the same hay and feed that everyone else id fed, she is not the queen (her mom is), but she in not on the bottom either, I would say closer to the top of the to tum post in regards to the pecking order.
    I do understand that she could of been butted and that killed the baby but two years in a row, and one that is the one that is butting most of the time?
    Thanks for your help.
  2. Victoria

    Victoria New Member

    Dec 20, 2008
    Vernonia, Oregon
    Poor Hope!
    Sounds like you really love her!!
    The first thing I thought of was selinium/copper deficincy, but it sounds like that is not the problem. I wonder if because she was a ressurected goat, maybe she doesn't metabolize the same as other goats, I am totally guessing here..
    My second thought was as you said, maybe she is getting butted, and again with her past she may not be as hearty as the other goats??
    Anyway to seperate her for the last 6 weeks of her next pregnancy??

  3. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    I know it is not a cooper or Selenium thing, it is always possible that she is butted, and I did really think about that but she is normally the one butting, BUT that does not say that she is not butted. They all get it at one time or another except Sophie. She is the queen and she she come walking around everyone else leaves.
    I really can not separate her at all. Like my DD and I were talking last night, we said well as long as she id fine I guess it is just gods will. I know that sounds like a cop out, but that is all we can think. She is so very spoiled bay me and I do love her to death. Like I said she is the only bottle baby I have ever had and she is my baby. She use to come to work with me and she even went to school with my daughter all the time. They even gave her a ID badge she wore on a collar while she was at the school. They even opened one of the class rooms door so she could go out side and play in the nice weather.
    I know most of you all have bottle babies and lots of them but I tell you I thank the lord after every kidding season that i do NOT have anymore because for one wow are they a lot of work, but two you just can not sell them or at least I can not. Several years ago someone offered me $200.00 for her but I could not take it. That would be like selling my daughter.
  4. FunnyRiverFarm

    FunnyRiverFarm New Member

    Sep 13, 2008
    Hudson, MI
    It is very strange that one baby has been normal everytime...if it was due to some kind of deficiency or something you'd think both would be affected. One of my first thoughts was that maybe since she was DOA and oxygen deprived maybe some of her tissue died and she now has scar-tissue in her uterus that won't allow it to expand properly. Maybe she can only accomodate one whichever is stronger kind of takes over....? Or maybe there was some kind of damage to her ovaries that only allows her to produce enough hormones to support one kid...? I can't think of anything else...
  5. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    They can survive as long as the umbilical cord is attached...that is the life line.... :) As for the smell ...she may have an infection...and if she does... it should be cleared up.. before breeding her again.. :worried:

    It really can be selinium/copper deficincy...If a doe doesn't go eat the loose salt and minerals as she should ,some does do not like it as well and ignore eating it....with those does... you have and make sure to feed them the loose salt and minerals during pregnancy there grain or put it down there throat............have her tested for the deficiency.. and maybe inject her with Bo-Se during help stop the problem....
    inside the womb one kid ..will be extra small or born dead..and the other 2 will thrive because they robbed.. all the nutrients from mom and the other kid... so they appear ..stronger and may see that the other siblings have floppy legs....and yet sometimes not....

    If this happens every isn't indication ...that she is getting slammed procisely at the same time ...of her pregnancy every year ..... :scratch:
    I have to say though ...they do sometimes get hit quite hard enough ...that one kid may die.....but your case doesn't sound like that to me..... :shrug:
  6. Epona142

    Epona142 The farm that Hope began

    May 25, 2008
    Madisonville, TX
    I just had to comment on this. WOW!

    I bet you freaked when that dead baby you threw suddenly came alive. :shocked:

    I would have!

    I hope you work out what's going on with her, what a special girl.
  7. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.

    Ok let me see if I can explain this.
    She does not have a infection at all, it was her that was rotting inside her mother.

    I have Sweetlix meat makers mineral and Sea Kelp out for them at all times and she does eat it, we always make sure they are all getting it. We did a blood test on her before and she was fine with the minerals. I had several goats or should I say most all my goats go totally bald last year after kidding so the vet pulled blood on them them check for any diff. That is when we found out that Monica was allergic to the sun. :shrug: Yes we had two different schools come to the same conclusion.

    I do understand that sometimes if you have more then one baby that they will rob from the others, I have been breeding for 9 years and she is the only one I have ever had a problem with. Never any other doe.
    I think I will just stop breeding her totally, but she loves being a mom and she is a good one at that.
  8. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    My daughter saw it and screamed. We grabbed her and cleaned off her face because she was kind of choking. I swung her upside down to try to clear her lungs and we patted her pretty good to move it around. One reason we never thought she had another was she had passed the placenta and ate it and what she did not eat we cleaned up. So when I decided to go into her, (she was down on the ground and she had been thrashing around all night in the stall because there was NOTHING on the ground, she had even kind of dug a hole where she was because of the pain she had been in. I thought well, what is it going to hurt? If I can go in then her cervix has not closed for some reason. NOPE I went right in and let me tell you how far in. :worried:
    Mom did start to clean her up, but then she was like NOOOO WAY that stinks. We had to bath her and clean her up.
  9. SDK

    SDK New Member

    Jun 26, 2008
    Yucaipa ca
    i have heard of a genetic fluck with a breed of beef cattle ( but at the moment i cannot recall which breed) that there was a recessive trait that if it was expressed the cow would not grow hair.. just little stubble hair sometimes a 1/2 inch thick

    could the goats have this?
  10. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    That would be worrisome, I'm sorry I can't give any info as to why this happens to Hopes babies, but she sure is a lucky lil' girl to have you.

    Since she is such a great mom and having this happen twice to her has not affected her health in any way, maybe give her another chance and possible do blood testingon her in mid pregnancy to see if any flags come up.
  11. all1965

    all1965 New Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Could it be that she is being bred twice each kidding and the smaller one is from the second breeding so it is premature?
    I know it doesn't happen that often that they take twice but that is the only thing I can think of?
  12. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    Thanks for all in info. it does help.

    As for her being a good mom and all, I love this goat so much just because of how she was such a fighter at the beginning of her life. Also she is one that took reserve Champion Cashmere goat at the Estes Park Wool Market in June. There was like 370 goat at the show. I do not care how she places but when she does well I am just so tickled.
  13. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    what about getting a nerocropsy (sp?) done on the dead kid. So it has only happened with twin bucklings right?
  14. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.

    Stacey, we thought about it but we for goat all about it before it was to late. We had all those babies born and we were just trying to get a place for them all.
    As for only happening with Bucks? I do not know what that last baby was. We did not even look. :shrug:
  15. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008

    On a more serious note, a couple things:

    - I am glad I am not the only one that has chucked a dead animal onto the ground only to realise that revived it. My ram lamb, arthur, was a bottle baby, and I went out and found him dead on morning (he got too cold), well I chucked him over the fence thinking I would deal with him later, and he kicked!

    - Sometimes when they have such a difficult start, they are 'hard keepers' all their life, and I would suspect she is just not able to cope with the nutritional demands of two kids, which is why one of the foetuses dies.

    - If she is a good mum, loves her babies, and she is a good type of goat, then I see no reason why you shouldnt keep breeding her. Even if she does have one dead, one alive hey, she has still got one baby to love and care for. And you could get some tests done on the dead one, if she repeats this 'thing'.

    FWIW, it is actually very hard to terminate a pregnancy by mechanical means (ie. butting or rough handling). The placental membranes and fluids are designed exactly to protect the foetus from mechanical injury.
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    she had one successful set of twins so I still think it is possible for her to have two healthy kids
  17. Victoria

    Victoria New Member

    Dec 20, 2008
    Vernonia, Oregon
    I agree with Karen, and if it were my goat, I would do the necropsy myself..
    See if the lungs look healthy and pink, and the heart..the organs should all
    look pink and healthy. But that's me..the mad scientist, not everyone can
    handle stuff like that!!
  18. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    I do not know if I could do that or not. I do believe my daughter would kill me. :shocked: Well it is to late this yea anyway, the baby is gone.
  19. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Although I do my own autopsies whenever I have one die, there is actually not a lot you can tell from autopsies on neonates, apart from obvious deformities. I dont think a basic visual autopsy would tell you much in this case.