{rant} Ignorance and dishonesty=terrible combination

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by elchivito, Sep 8, 2010.

  1. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    Apr 18, 2010
    I was at a party the other night. Gabbing with an acquaintance who has a little yearling nubian doe she rescued from a slaughter sale at our local fair. She got it to be a companion for her horse and knows nothing. Says to me "maybe I should breed her to your mini togg buck and get some mini-milker babies". Good idea I told her. When she comes in heat next month bring her over and we'll get her bred for spring babies. "Right now she has some sores I'm treating though" she says. Oh-oh.... Sores? I say. "yeah, these abscess things, I busted them and cleaned them out. I called the woman I got her from and she told me "oh, they all get those, don't worry about it.""....Let me guess I say, are they under her ear? "How did you know?" she says...And, I said, are they kind of in a line, down her neck, sort of all three in a row, with the biggest one closest to her ear?....at this point her eyes are bugging out....and, I say, when you cleaned them it looked like ricotta cheese and didn't smell bad..."oh my gosh she says, how did you know all that!!??"
    I explained the situation to her and told her what she probably had and said I'm sorry but there's now way your little girl is coming anywhere near my buck and you shouldn't ever consider breeding her unless you want to go to the expense of having her tested first.
    I don't use the word ignorance in a derogatory way but rather in it's classical meaning of being uninformed. How can people take on the responsibility of caring for livestock without going to the effort of learning at least a bit about their care and potential threats to their health? And how can a breeder, who obviously in my opinion KNOWS she has a problem in her herd and is either ignorant or probably a liar knowing sell an animal to someone without informing them of potential problems?
    Boy it makes me mad.
  2. citylights

    citylights Member

    Jul 3, 2009
    Southern California
    Ugh. That's a horrible story. But in the new owner's defense, I didn't know anything about goats when I got my first one. I'd had horses and sheep and other animals, but no experience with goats. I do hope, however, that in the case of odd, multiple abcesses (or something else that didn't seem right) I'd contact someone with experience instead of just dismissing them. Poor thing. I wonder if that's why she was in the sale. How rotten of the breeder to do that to someone. Really is selling a goat with CL worth little bit of $$ she got? Where's ethics and responsibility?

  3. HoosierShadow

    HoosierShadow Senior Member

    Apr 19, 2010
    Central Kentucky
    I agree, I didn't know anything about goats either, and I bought a doe from a local auction, sparing her life from slaughter too. She was underweight, had horrible hoof rot, and after we brought her home she developed abscesses, - I was terrified of CL, but the abscesses eventually shriveled up like raisins and went away....WHEW.
    I got her fit and healthy, and resold her because she became too mean to my other does <guarding the hay and being very mean to them>. But the new owner was experienced, and wasnt' worried about her vices...
    With all that said, going to that sale, I had no idea that sales are NOT a place to get good goats. I know there are good goats to be found, but do you take the risk? Sadly, new goat owners probably don't know this :(
    I know I didn't because in all the information I was looking up on the internet,never did I find good information on going to a sale to look for goats. I can recall my father buying calves and many other animals from auction or swap meets - no problems, so why not goats? But reality doesn't always hit until it's too late. Sadly.
    I remember the last time I went over to our local auction to look around. There was a farmer selling their entire herd of Boer goats - a nice looking buck, the does were all a bit run down but had been nursing, but didn't look awful, just needed more weight put on them. They had a pen with about 15 boer goat kids, they were all very young, and newly weaned.
    Farmer was selling because they were losing their farm :( They were heartbroken but had to sell the gaots fast. If it hadn't been for my last experience, I would have picked up a couple of the young does who sold dirt cheap! BUT, I learned my lesson with buying from sales, and sadly, even if these goats were healthy....no way I was bringing them home.
    Rewind 3 months, and I would have bought as many as I could!
    So I have to be in the new owners defense as well, sounds like they were cheated, and that isn't right. At least she is watching them, and cleaning them, but is it enough? I sure hope her horse doesn't get it! It's just so very sad, and definitely dishonest. I'd be giving that breeder my $.02 for sure if it had been me and I found out I was lied to!
  4. Polarhug

    Polarhug New Member

    Jul 1, 2010
    Southcentral Alaska
    Sad, but many livestock owners are like this. They pretty much let the animals fend for themselves and don't bother to get themselves educated about various diseases.

    Shame shame on the seller for telling the owner it was no big deal. But then again, sounds like neither of them knew much about it in the first place. Can't blame them for that....I didn't know much either when I started, but I got tons of books and this forum to make sure I was at least trying to educate myself. Poor goat :(
  5. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    We all where new to goats.... even me :wink: Alot of people want to learn...as I did and as members do here on the TGS ..... but ....I do know.... that their are those few... that do nothing with them...and don't even want to learn .......they just think ...they will fend for themselves.... it is very sad.... but it does happen.....because they just don't care...... :(

    For a breeder to tell her... not to worry about the abscesses.... is not cool.... I would definitely have the Doe tested... before you decide... if she will be bred by your buck....I can't blame you at all there....
  6. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I agree with Pam...it is a real shame that there are those out there with animals and are totally ignorant when it comes to general things such as care and health. Too bad they end up doing more harm than good because they don't have the heart or the want to when it comes to researching those simple things.
  7. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    Oct 8, 2009
    She got this doeling to be a companion for her horse...great...I'd suggest you should ask her if she's ever heard of a disease called "pigeon breast" in horses.

    If she hasn't heard of it...well, just tell her she's about to get an education on it from the little goat. :(
  8. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    Apr 18, 2010
    I sympathize with the owner to a point also. Never the less, it's sad how many people will adopt a goat or goats and throw them out in their pasture and not take the time to learn anything. She isn't "new" to goats either. She's had two pygmies for several years before she got the Nubian doe, they never get sick, so she's never bothered to learn anything about them. I don't expect her to test her doe and I'm certainly not going to do it for her. The lesions will heal up and she'll forget about it unless they re-appear. I won't be deciding whether or not to let her use my buck. That decision is already made. Her doe isn't getting anywhere near my herd.
    Regarding the breeder. This bothers me quite a bit. She is quite experienced and even leads a 4H club at a local private school where she teaches. The animals her kids show and sell at auction are all from her line. Buyers at the fair pay way over market price for the animals they buy as it's a way to support local kids in 4H and FFA. I'd sure hate to be the buyer of one of her meat animals and send it off for processing only to hear back that the carcass had been condemned due to internal lesions.
    I did talk to the owner about Pigeon Fever. I was chatting with my vet about the whole situation and he says that there is some controversy about whether there can be goat to horse transmission or vice-versa. He said most recent research is indicating that the Cornybacterium that causes CL is slghtly different than the one that causes pigeon fever, although there's nothing definite known yet. As usual, nobody's doing any research on goats and won't unless it benefits horses. As we all know, in the vet business, horses are where the money is . Like my cattle rancher neighbor says: "Hell, a goat ain't worth spendin' no money on." :(
    So sad this attitude persists.
  9. cmjust0

    cmjust0 New Member

    Oct 8, 2009
    If goats received proper veterinary care, they'd be more expensive than they are right now and fewer people could afford to raise them. Which would mean fewer goats. Which, of course, would only serve to bolster the price of a goat.. And if they cost more money, they'd be a bigger investment, which would encourage people to take better care of them and make sure they get propery veterinary care.. So on, so forth, in an upward spiral.

    Hopefully, we'll see that happen someday. :D
  10. Lawanda

    Lawanda New Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    West Virginia
    Perhaps that was the reason the goat was going to be slaughtered in the first place, before she "saved" it?
  11. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Around here, goats at the auction barn are either culls from herds that do not want certain faults or those that are stricken with some illness or another. I've had potential buyers tell me they can go to the auction and get a little goat like mine for $30....I tell them if thats what they would rather have because it's $50 cheaper go for it BUT #1 They won't know if they are truly getting a "pygmy/nigi" or they may be getting what the auctioneer calls a pygmy because it's a short goat, #2 They could be buying someone elses "problem" #3 Theres no proof of vaccinations, worming or health history...so if they want to get that goat from the auction and it ends up costing more $ in the long run due to disease OR it dies and breaks their childs heart is that something they really want to be dealing with? Even if someone is just looking I am open to their questions and try and educate them and if they decide I don't have exactly what they are looking for, I give them names of others who may have what they want and they can go to other breeders with at least a bit more education on goats than what they came to me with.
  12. newtopygmies

    newtopygmies New Member

    May 26, 2010
    ashville alabama
    Maybe breeders are more honest where you are than some of the ones I have tried to deal with down here. I would rather buy at auction. I have several goats bought at auction and they are doing fine. Since I don't need a registered goat...or a pedigree I am fine. I got them for weed control.

    I look them over real well before the auction, write down the numbers, and go in and bid. I just bought a beautiful doe last weekend ( even though I couldn't afford it).
  13. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    Apr 18, 2010
    I understand about regular livestock auctions. We have the same things here and I always advise people NOT to buy an animal at a commercial auction unless it's for slaughter. The auction I spoke of wasn't that kind of auction. It was a 4H / FFA auction at our local fair. The kind of auction where kids who have raised market animals as projects and who show them then get to sell them. It's a completely different deal. Most of the buyers are local businesses and bigshots who pay WAY over market price for the animals they buy in order to support the kids involved. For example, at this year's fair auction the Grand Champion meat goat went for 4.75 a pound. Not exactly commercial auction prices. (On year my son sold a trio of Buff Orpington poultry for a thousand dollars and got all three of them back. A local car dealer bought them. ) The buyers have the option of offering the animal back to the kid if they don't really want it, and that's what happened in this situation. The kid got his sale price, the buyer got a tax deduction, and the kid then resold the animal to my friend because his parents wouldn't let him keep her.
    What galls me most about this deal is the woman who bred the goat is a 4H leader with many years' experience and MUST know she has CL in her herd. She raises Nubians yet doesn't show in dairy class. She gives away babies to her 4H kids but will only let them raise and show them for meat. Our local meat processors are very careful about carcass inspection and I know good and well that they'd condemn a carcass if they found internal CL lesions on it. It'll be too bad when one day somebody pays 4.50 a pound for a goat and can't get the meat out of it because the processor condemns the carcass. I guess I'm just pretty discouraged because I'd previously felt that this woman had some integrity and was doing right by the kids she's leading. Eventually I'm going to talk to her about it, but not until I've cooled off, which may take a while.
  14. bbredmom

    bbredmom New Member

    Sep 30, 2008
    Central Arkansas
    Is there anyway the breeder could have bought this doeling from somewhere else that was supposedly CL free? Or is it for sure one of her own?

    CL scares me. I thought lady had an abcess, but it turned out to be a salivary gland or a bitten cheek. Too far forward and burst to the inside and never got soft. Whew.
  15. elchivito

    elchivito Active Member

    Apr 18, 2010
    nope. It's hers. I suppose it could have caught something in the show barn, but her telling the owner "oh they all get those, don't worry about it" let's me know that she's seen it before in her own line.
  16. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    I'm not sure if the owner was actually dishonest...sounds more like he/she just doesn't know anything about it. And since CL lumps can come and go...it could be seen as "no big deal." Since they can clear up and somewhat just go away.

    As a buyer though...a "rescue" auction goat bound for slaughter isn't a good choice at all. You have no idea what you're getting. I would help her out as best you can, but make sure she gets that goat away from the horse asap.
  17. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    That is a real shame that that happened. I know it shouldn't amaze me how people care for their animals and don't bother making sure they are healthy but it still does amaze me. Especially someone who is teaching children. I sure wouldn't want my child being taught animal care from her.

    Cmjust0 - it doesn't matter how much you pay for an animal, there are people out there that just don't take care of them. I know people who paid over $20k per alpaca and still neglected them (then wondered what happened when they died).