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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just found out that "AA" at the beginning of the number means American Alpine ( Please don't laugh, this was my first time to register a goat), so apparently our two "French Alpines" which we have had for 5 years turned out to be American!!!!!? I could swear (if I did, which I don't) that the man who sold them to us called them French, as I could also attest that their applications said French, NOT American! I just sent them in not long ago, and just got the papers back a couple days ago, and turns out, our dear girls are American. :( Not that I mind, really, but it makes me feel like a complete IDIOT! Especially because we finally bought a buck this year, and we got him specifically because he is PB French. :wallbang: :eek:

Anyay, sorry for ranting. My question was this: both does have the same sire, an AA; and one doe's dam is also AA. But the other doe's dam's number starts with "GA". I couldn't find out what this means..?
 

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E = Experimental which means both parents are registered.

Completely unknown would be GE or Grade Experimental (usually Native on appearance or native on performance)

GA = Somewhere a parent was not registered. She is at least 50% Alpine. If the dams both have AA, then the GA is at least 75% Alpine.

If you have the papers, then near the top it should say "American Alpine". If you see "Purebred Alpine" then that would be the pure french alpine you are looking for. Your does are graded up from mixed breed/ unknown breeds into american alpines. You have also seen this on the adgagenetics site.

Does that help?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
E = Experimental which means both parents are registered.

Completely unknown would be GE or Grade Experimental (usually Native on appearance or native on performance)

GA = Somewhere a parent was not registered. She is at least 50% Alpine. If the dams both have AA, then the GA is at least 75% Alpine.

If you have the papers, then near the top it should say "American Alpine". If you see "Purebred Alpine" then that would be the pure french alpine you are looking for. Your does are graded up from mixed breed/ unknown breeds into american alpines. You have also seen this on the adgagenetics site.

Does that help?
Actually, only one of my does has a parent that has "GA" at the beginning- on the other one, both parents have AA.
The man we bought them from had told us that she was 1/8 toggenburg; and on the application he had her down as experimental, conforming to the Alpine breed standard.And their papers both say American Alpine at the top.
 

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So I need to correct my post. People smarter than me pointed this out:

Native on Appearance will be Grade____ breed of whatever they conform to. So a doe that is registered Native on Appearance Saanen will be Grade Saanen... etc.

Grade Experimental can be where one parent is experimental and one is unknown or where parent is a grade of a breed and then was bred to a different breed.

My personally known examples:
Native on Appearance (grade saanen) = http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=S001032169

Grade Experimental with unknown parentage = http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=E001273156

Grade Experimental with known parentage =
http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=E001190449

Would you be willing to post your girls reg. numbers. I might be able to give you a little more insight into what their parentage is...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Would you be willing to post your girls reg. numbers. I might be able to give you a little more insight into what their parentage is...
Yeah, sure.
C & G'S West Wind Danielle Registration ID: AA1651957
^^ She is the one that is supposed to be 1/8 Togg.

C & G'S West Wind Jacqueline Registration ID:AA1651959

Both does sire: Three-Rings Silverado Rgistration ID: AA265480

I couldn't find much info on the sire, as the Three-Rings website is outdated, as is the West Wind dairy one. :/

I can give you their dam's numbers as well if you like.
 

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So I did a little research, no actually, I search a lot a websites because it is fun and I can make some guesses as to the animal's backgrounds for you. Granted these are all guesses.

Starting Danielle: http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=A001651957
That is her online pedigree. You can learn a lot about an animals with that information. She is indeed 1st generation american alpine. Her dam's dam (pecan fudge) was 50% alpine, 50% unknown. It is entirely possible that she was 50% Togg and 50% alpine (since the herd had both) but since they have several animals which were registered experimental 50/50, I suspect that her dam jumped into the buck pen. Her dam's dam's dam (Tornado) had several other alpine kids over different years, again suggesting that this was a random event.

Jacqueline http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=A001651959
has been an american alpine for many many generations. I found an ad of someone selling kids from her dam (Erin) and calling them purebred alpines, so it sounds like you might not be the only one who isn't sure about their breed designation.
"have three purebred Alpine doe kids born April 15, 2009 for sale for $150. Their dam C&G 'S WEST WIND TRFS ERIN came from a dairy, she was a two gallon per day milker at the dairy. Their Alpine sire "Brandon" was also from this dairy. These does were part of quads, I have already sold" http://goo.gl/aJ9RPh

Their sire is the same (as you said) as each other and their grand sire is the same as their sire, so daughters bred back to father. He doesn't have a lot of data, but it looks like he was used pretty heavily at the dairy. Wasabi (his sire and grand sire) has a lot of interesting data. Lots of offspring have milk records and appraisal scores which might be fun to look at. These girls are both pretty inbred which can be good or bad, but you should be able to have some fun breeding them. Exciting to see what you will get.

Did I confuse you more?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I found an ad of someone selling kids from her dam (Erin) and calling them purebred alpines, so it sounds like you might not be the only one who isn't sure about their breed designation.
"have three purebred Alpine doe kids born April 15, 2009 for sale for $150. Their dam C&G 'S WEST WIND TRFS ERIN came from a dairy, she was a two gallon per day milker at the dairy. Their Alpine sire "Brandon" was also from this dairy. These does were part of quads, I have already sold" http://goo.gl/aJ9RPh

Did I confuse you more?
A little, haha. Wow, how did you find all that so quickly?! This is very cool.
We've had then for about 5 years, and they've had kids 4 times (one year we had a dud buck- or at least they didn't like him. Whatever the reason, we had no kids that year. :/ )
But the way things worked out, we've never kept any of their kids, though we wanted to badly. Just didn't work out.
I'm just now learning about things like conformation, and pedigrees and such.
This year we finally bought our OWN buck; a purebred French Alpine, that we are hoping to use for this years breeding.
Here's his name and number:
Greenwood Ranch Storm Cloud Registration ID: A1645736

As someone else knowledgable told me, he is inbred as well, but at least he is not related to our girls. Hopfully he will improve at least some things about the girls.

Oh, and Brandon was the buck that both our girls were bred to when we bought them.
 

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I have an American Alpine, Heidi.

This is her pedigree: http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=A001594533

I am not sure what she is mixed with, or where the mixing occured though. :) ETA, in the mid. 1900s it looks like she is missing a few generations, but my PB Nubian has that too.
Once you find Sasin, you can find where the american alpine comes from. He was first generation american. You will find him in a lot of the west coast genetics (as he was one of the greatest alpine sires to ever live).

I'm sure there are other locations, but that was what stood out first. :)
 

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Once you find Sasin, you can find where the american alpine comes from. He was first generation american. You will find him in a lot of the west coast genetics (as he was one of the greatest alpine sires to ever live).

I'm sure there are other locations, but that was what stood out first. :)
That makes sense, I was looking for when the blanks started. I didn't know that about Sasin either. That's really cool. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Oh, I meant to say we never kept any of the kids until THIS year. Last October or whenever it was, we borrowed a registered Nubian buck, so we ended up with three beautiful Nubian/Alpine cross doelings. :)

Oh, and if youd like to see Danielle and Jacqueline, you can go to this thread I had going for people to tell me how good/bad their conformation is: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/judging-time-150204/
Apparently, they're just sort of okay. :/
 

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Some people do not realize that American is not a purebred. To them, if the papers mention the breed, they are purebred. It may not have been an intentional scam, they just may not understand the registration process.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That's what I used to think- I did not realize there was a difference.
I'm glad someone else may have made the same mistake I did in thinking these were purebred; makes me feel less like a dummy. ;)
 

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A little, haha. Wow, how did you find all that so quickly?! This is very cool.
I am a goat nerd. Obsessive maybe even. My friends and I counted the days until they released production reports and spent more time the week of national show in discussion than actually doing any real work. We are crazy like that.

As someone else knowledgable told me, he is inbred as well, but at least he is not related to our girls. Hopefully he will improve at least some things about the girls.
Your kids will be VERY out crossed. In fact the inbreeding is less than 1% on these kids. That could be very good or bad. You will have to let us know how the kids turn out. Normally I aim for less than 10% inbred on does and less than 15% inbred on bucks. But that is a personal preference. The important thing to consider is how strong are the animals who are the highest inbreeding contributors.
Here is what the cross looks like on paper (http://adgagenetics.org/PlannedPedigreePrint.aspx?SireNum=A001645736&DamNum=A001651959) if you haven't already seen it.

I'm glad someone else may have made the same mistake I did in thinking these were purebred; makes me feel less like a dummy.
Don't feel that way, we all have to have it explained at some point. In some breeds it makes no difference and people like americans just as much if not more. In some breeds purebreds are more desirable and in some breeds (Lamanchas) it really doesn't matter because you can breed up from american to purebred anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I am a goat nerd. Obsessive maybe even. My friends and I counted the days until they released production reports and spent more time the week of national show in discussion than actually doing any real work. We are crazy like that.
:laugh:

Your kids will be VERY out crossed. In fact the inbreeding is less than 1% on these kids. That could be very good or bad. You will have to let us know how the kids turn out. Normally I aim for less than 10% inbred on does and less than 15% inbred on bucks. But that is a personal preference. The important thing to consider is how strong are the animals who are the highest inbreeding contributors.
Here is what the cross looks like on paper (http://adgagenetics.org/PlannedPedigreePrint.aspx?SireNum=A001645736&DamNum=A001651959) if you haven't already seen it.
No, I had not seen that. Can you do that on the ADGA website?? I would like to print those out possibly in the future, to give myself and possible customers something to look at. :)
In what way would it be bad for them to be out crossed?

Don't feel that way, we all have to have it explained at some point. In some breeds it makes no difference and people like americans just as much if not more. In some breeds purebreds are more desirable and in some breeds (Lamanchas) it really doesn't matter because you can breed up from american to purebred anyway.
I don't mind American Alpines, but I like the idea of keeping up the old purebred breeds. So I was hoping we could do that with Storm. But I just found out that our other Alpine doe Suzi (you may have seen her on the other thread) is a purebred French. :D I've contacted the breeder (Carol Sanders, Fredrickburg, TX) and she's going to help me get her registered.
So hopefully we'll get some purebred kids after all!
 

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In what way would it be bad for them to be out crossed?
Not sure about this still...
Sorry, first week of school. Kinda busy.

I think the best way to think of this is like flavors of food. Roll with me on this analogy for a second.

The more in-bred you get the more the more concentrated the flavor.

A doe who has a lot of different lines is like a salad = lots of different flavors.
The more bred on one line, the more ingredients you take away, and soon you have a salad of all tomatoes. Tomatoes are great so that is probably okay. Sometimes you inbreed tightly and it turns out poorly (no one wants a salad of all dressing). Hopefully those are animals that are culled out so that highly inbreed does are tomato salads not dressing salads.

Okay still with me?

How could very outcrossed be bad? Well if you take two flavors and combine them, it could be very good or very bad right? Especially when you have a doe that is 40% inbred and a buck that is nearly 20% inbred. It is going to be wonderful or not so much.
Using my analogy. Tomatoes and cucumbers = great. Tomatoes and cheese = great. Tomatoes and chocolate = surprisingly wonderful. Fish fingers and custard = Hahaha! (joke). Chocolate and fish = not so great (I speak from experience on this actually. bad combination. don't eat it).
The animals you have are inbred so they can only pass on what they have.
With less inbred, you could have many different alleles so that siblings don't look a like and a cross that works once may not work perfectly again. Your animals probably don't have a lot of allelic variation so they can only pass along the trait one way. Thus the cross will be great (tomatoes and cheese) or not so great (fish and chocolate). You will have to let us know.

Whew, okay. Hopefully that made sense.
 
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