Renamed - detailed info on fecals

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by nancy d, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    :scratch: So tired of reading opinions. Most of you worm once & then again in another 10 days correct?
    Im one of those ppl who has never had a fecal done.
    Just read somewhere else not to ARRG cause supposedly causes resistance. It's my understanding that resistance is due to UNDERdosing; ie either not large enough dose or no second dose to break the cycle.
    Or the simple fact that alot of them dont work anymore to begin with. Thanks!
     
  2. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    Re: worming questions

    I use the FAMANCHA(sp) chart to see IF they need to be wormed. I fecal to see if my wormer is working.

    Many of the wormers do not work in the hot, humid, wet, South but still work in the Northern states.

    Depending on the load I will use Quest/Moxidectin one day and use Ivermectin the next, repeat in 7 days.

    Fecals are easy to learn to do. All ya need is a cheapie microscope and some slides. The float solution can be made with salt, sugar, or epsom salt.
     

  3. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Re: worming questions

    I am a freak because I love parasitology!!! :stars:

    Here's the deal though - you should to do fecals before you treat your goats. I'm a stickler about treating for the right parasites. Resistant parasites are caused by either regularly under-dosing an animal or it can even be from treating an animal at regular intervals whether they have parasites or not. The body is a very tricky thing and it doesn't like to get drugs when it doesn't need them.

    You can get it done by your vet or you can even do it yourself (but you need a microscope and some slides first). The simplest method is to do a fecal floatation. To do this you can either purchase fecal solution or make your own. To make your own these are the steps:

    1) Fill a large pot with TAP water and bring to a rolling boil
    2) Add table salt and stir until it is dissolved completely
    3) Keep adding salt and stirring until no more salt dissolves (supersaturating the water with salt)
    4) Filter out the excess salt and use the remaining solution as your Fecal Flotation Solution

    To do a flotation you need to collect the feces (ideally before it hits the ground which means you have to actually go in and get it :shocked: or wait until the goat poops and catch it). The amount of feces you're going to use is the size of the tip of your pinky finger (~1g), but it's good to collect a little more than that in case the sample gets spilled or contaminated.

    Put the 1g poo in a small pill bottle and smush it up very very very well (so there's no clumps). Then fill it 1/4 full with your fecal solution and smush it up some more. Next, fill it completely full with the fecal solution to the point where it's almost overflowing (you want it to form a meniscus over the top, a bubble of fecal solution) because you're going to put your slide on top of the pill bottle next. Make sure that there are very few air bubbles because they can make it hard to see any eggs. When you put the slide on top of the bottle it should be touching the meniscus of the fecal solution. It's ok if it overflows a very little bit, but not too much. Leave the slide on the fecal preparation for 5-10minutes. Then take it off and flip it quickly so that the fecal solution does not run off the slide. Place it under your microscope and observe it under 10x power.

    Eggs that you often see are:
    1) Trichostrongylus sp. (you can't tell the species apart unless you have special equipement, but the parasites in this category are Barber pole worm, Brown Stomach worm, Bankrupt Worm, Cattle Bankrupt Worm, Hookworm of Cattle/Sheep/Goats, and Hair Worm)
    2) Strongyloides sp. (Threadworm)
    3) Trichuris ovis (Whipworm)
    4) Eimeria sp. (Coccidia)
    5) Monezia benedeni (Tapeworm)
    6) Fasciola hepatica (Common liver fluke worm)

    You can find their pictures if you google images.

    You cannot find lungworms on a fecal flotation. They don't float well because they are big. There's another test for that.

    Let me know if you have any more questions because I love this stuff! :wahoo:

    Edit1: the FAMACHA score only tests for anemia which can be caused by lots of things including parasites


    EDIT2: I said before that you need distilled water to make the supersaturated NaCl (table salt) solution . . . I was wrong . . . it's even better! You can just use TAP water! No need to buy distilled :wahoo:
     
  4. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Re: worming questions

    Thanks so much for the fascinating info! I've always wanted to learn to do it but gotta find a microscope first.
    Very good, the proper as well as common names for different parasites!
    Yes the famacha chart mostly good for determining anemia & barberpoll not a good indicator for the rest.

    Just bought the ivermectin+ injectable (done orally) There are slugs & snails around here they have only gotten the regular ivermectin. Tho the only place they eat off the ground is under the hay rack where babies do their biz.
    I dont worm but maybe 4 times a year & always the first day of kidding.

    Mods can we get a sticky of her list?
     
  5. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: worming questions

    Doing fecals are EASY and really neat!! The microscope doesn't need to be an expensive thing either....I have seen a couple(1-2) barberpole in fecals from a couple of my goats, nothing for me to worry about as even my vet will tell me to not worm for that number, I do use Ivermectin paste when needed and repeat in 10 days.

    Jess...that info is VERY helpful and simple to understand. Thank You!
     
  6. Shelly Borg

    Shelly Borg New Member

    361
    Nov 2, 2009
    Redding CA
    Re: worming questions

    I was just at a class for this.

    Jess. Have you every used sugar instead of salt? We where told that sugar has less of a chance of recrystallizing.

    Also if you see a large donut shaped object look closely. Most of the time it is bubbles.
     
  7. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: worming questions

    I use an Epsom Salt solution taken from FiasCo Farm's website..... and yes, those "donut" things threw me off and made me dizzy for my first few slides!
     
  8. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Re: worming questions

    I have never personally used the sugar fecal solution, although I have heard good and bad things. The good things that I've heard is that, yes, it does not recrystallize quite as quickly as the saline solution and also that some parasite eggs float better in the sugar solution (eggs like the Salmon Poisoning Fluke which is super-rare in goats). The bad of sugar solution is that it's super messy and sticky as all get out. Sometimes if you are using cover slips along with a regular slide then it's practically impossible to salvage the cover slip after one use because of how messy the sugar is. Sugar can also does not have a long shelf life and can attract flies and ants when in storage. The supersaturated table salt solution works well, but if you want to go all out "Forensic Files" high techy :shades: I would purchase some sodium nitrate fecal solution. You can buy it in liquid or powder form which can be reconstituted by adding tap water. The pre-made stuff is great for if you've tried the table-salt method and just can't make out the eggs well, if the eggs look weird when you finally get them under the microscope (it's called "denatured" or "crenated"), or if you can't see any at all but you just know that goat is wormy :scratch: . The high techy stuff makes everything so clear it's awesome! :lovey:

    Dry and Liquid Fecal Solution (labeled for dogs and cats but poop is poop and it doesn't matter one bit what kind you use)
    http://www.dogcatetc.com/014008-ov.html
    http://www.dogcatetc.com/014008-rtu.html

    Actually, my favorite method is using a cover slip as well as the regular slide . . . I like to place a smaller, thinner cover slip over the pill bottle w/fecal instead of a large bulky slide that's easy to topple. Also, I like to have a definite square area to examine instead of a blob of undefined size. It can also keep your microscope cleaner. The downside is that you have to buy those cover slips as well as the slides and they break very easily.

    And one more cool thing:
    Goats eat a ton of roughage which makes their poo like a little maze of digested twigs and confusing plant cells. In order to make fecals a bit easier to read it is ok to strain the poop after you smush it up really well. You can use a regular kitchen strainer (don't use it for food though and label it to make sure no one mistakes it and filters their tea or something :help: ) or a single square of gauze and make it only one two layers thick.

    Here's my method for straining:
    1) After smushing the right amount of poop in the pill bottle fill the pill bottle 1/2 full with fecal solution and smush again (being sure not to create excessive bubbles).
    2) Then take an empty 5dram pill bottle and place it beside the bottle with the fecal material in it. Hold your strainer over the empty pill bottle and pour the full bottle over the strainer and into the empty bottle. Be careful not to spill any of the liquid because it might skew your results.
    3) After you're done straining the fluid you can squeeze the bolus of plant material to try to get as much liquid out as you can.
    4) Then just fill the second bottle up to the top, add a slide or cover slip, and continue the process as usual.
    It really helps to strain that stuff especially if you're not confident on distinguishing plant cell from parasite egg . . . yet! :cool:

    PS: i edited my other post a bit. you don't need to used distilled water, tap water works just fine :thumb:
     
  9. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    For my strainer, I found an old tea strainer, (looks like a ball with a handle, squeeze and the ball opens up) at a yard sale for a quarter. It stays in my fecal kit with the microscope and the float solution, test tubes and slides. It does filter out most of the vegetable matter but one must sort through some. I allow the slide to sit atop the tube with the strained sample for 30 minutes so any coccidia will float up. I bought my microscope from a yard sale also. I think I paid a buck for it. The slides, test tubes, and cover slips I got a Hobby Lobby as they were the only local store that carried them. The fecal float is from Fiasco Farms website.
     
  10. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    I do the Fiasco method also. I use either 3 or 4 grams (can't remember) smash it well, add the solution smash more, then I put it through a strainer that is very fine, if it is like the tea strainer that is not fine enough, I squeeze it hard through the strainer, poor it in my test tube and fill with the solution, the eggs will rise to the top. I use a slide, then put a cover slip over it to look in the microscope.

    The first time i did it I thought GREAT my goat is FULL of worms. NOPE they were bubbles.
     
  11. GoldenSeal

    GoldenSeal New Member

    298
    Sep 13, 2010
    Alberta, Canada
    What kind of microscope are you using?
     
  12. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    You need a Compound Microscope for examining feces for eggs or larva.

    I'll give you a few examples . . . unfortunately, they are expensive little beasties. :shocked:
    This is the one we use at work for our fecal tests:
    http://www.microscope.com/omano-om88-40x1600x-clinical-compound-microscope-p-45.html
    Here's a cute little one! :kidblack: It's apparently out of stock, of course. :hair:
    http://www.microscope.com/omano-om115ld-2in1-portable-microscope-p-621.html

    Dissecting or stereo microscopes will not work for doing fecal tests for eggs or larva, which is unfortunate because they tend to be the least expensive. :doh: :help:
     
  13. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I got the one reccommended on Fiasco Farms site for doing fecals...not the exact one but it has a light, magnification to x40 and I can definately see eggs...A few barberpole showed up...one slide I counted 3. Amazon.com for around $80
     
  14. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Sweet, liz! That's a great deal! :D

    You can even try ebay if you're not looking for a brand-spankin' new one! Just make sure that they still make the right kinds of light bulbs and spare lenses for the model that you buy. And get the care instructions for any microscope. There are some simple maintenance things that you can do (like storage info, handling, cleaning the lenses with a specific type of paper, etc.) and it will keep your microscope in top form for years and years! :cool:
     
  15. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Thanks for the tip on the bulbs Jess...mine did come new with a spare bulb...looks oddly like the reverse light bulb in a car though!
     
  16. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Can I just add that the Mcmasters slide is so worth the money and makes doing fecals soooo easy and gives you an easy way to get a count......they are pricey, but so worth it in my opinion.
     
  17. dustyroad

    dustyroad New Member

    7
    Mar 10, 2012
    Approximately how much salt ends up being used? A cup? A carton?
     
  18. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    The amount of salt used will vary with the amount of water as well as how concentrated the solution is.