Sad day... and not over

Discussion in 'Kidding Koral' started by Breezy, Jul 14, 2020.

  1. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    So, I have a 3 year old doe who is in the process of her first freshening. I had two due dates on her, the first came and passed and the second was two days ago.

    Yesterday she passed a lot of brown goo, and I felt her cervix, she was dilated but nothing in the birth canal. She did some weak pushes through the night, and nothing. I checked her again this morning and that put her in a harder labor. She pushed out an empty bubble, and then another bubble with a back leg that was elbow out, bent forward. My vet is unavailable so we were on our own. I had to maneuver that leg out and couldn’t find the other, but was able to help her push the rest out. He was dead, apparently from the looks, he had been dead a while, up he wasn’t full developed. A little of pinkish tissue and brown tissue came out with him, but does not appear to be part of her.... I hope...

    So she is resting now, I’m going to bounce her in a bit to see if she has any more babies. I’m praying that she has one still alive, but mostly, that she survives this. I plan to start her on antibiotics tonight and iodine vagina rinses in the morning.

    I’m so frustrated. This is my 5th delivery and nearly every one had problems. My herd queen had triplets and the third was butt first, and I had to pull his legs forward. They all survived. The second year she had placenta previa which I had to move out of the way so she could give birth, and she did successfully. I did not breed her again. Her daughter had one good delivery, except one of her boys was cryotochorid, the second she had a vaginal prolapse the entire pregnancy and a rectal prolapse during birth. I had to hold her rectum in while she pushed. All her babies survived. I did not breed her again.

    This doe is her baby, and had an uneventful pregnancy so I thought. I don’t know if she will make it. Say a prayer for her please. She did eat and drink throughout the labor so that is good, but I can only hope I didn’t do internal damage, but I do know that she would have never have gotten the dead kid out and died otherwise.

    If she makes it, and that’s my main concern, do I still milk her? Her udders are full.
     
  2. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    I’ve been giving her a little calf manna, grain mixed with molasses and water mixed with molasses and karo...

    I plan to give her b complex later
     

  3. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    You need to go back in up to your elbow and feel for a kid. She is going to need a uterine flush. I'd do a uterine flush for 3 days in a row. I'd also do penicillin twice a day for a minimum of 10 days. Sorry you lost the kid.
     
  4. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    She had two more dead
     
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  5. Damfino

    Damfino Well-Known Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Right behind you
    I'm sorry you've had such a rough time of it. Kidding should be one of the joys of life and not a tragedy. I agree that you need to make sure there are no more kids. I would not expect any to still be alive, but you don't want a dead one in there either. Do you think she got rammed? A hard hit late in pregnancy can kill the fetus.

    I hope your girl makes it. I don't think you ruptured her uterus. If you had, I think you would probably have seen a lot of bright red blood. Your girl will need lots of love and attention for a while as I'm sure she's mourning her loss as much as you are. If you want a milk goat, milk her. She may bond to you as her new "baby" and give her a new outlook on life. If you don't want a milk goat, only relieve excess pressure if necessary and keep an eye out for heat or swelling that would indicate mastitis. I'm sorry you're going through this and I hope your girl pulls through ok.

    With so many problems it would be worthwhile to review your entire goat management and see if you can find anything amiss, whether it's mineral imbalance or nutrient-poor pasture or hay. It could even be poor genetics. Even if it turns out you're doing everything right, it never hurts to review.
     
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  6. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    I think it must be genetic, or she got rammed by the herd queen. I feed my goats alfalfa hay, sweet lix minerals, Sel e, copper bolus twice a year, zero worm load (had fecals done) pasture has not been a problem for us. This is our first loss, all the other goats were born healthy, just difficult births
     
  7. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    The other two looked great. I’m guessing the dead underdeveloped fetus kept them from being born on time
     
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  8. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    Would it be okay to start uterine flushes tomorrow am? Also, when can I start milking her?
     
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  9. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    I’m so mad at myself... I thought about checking her yesterday but I waited too long. I read an article about people intervening too early and that is why they have kidding problems. I was determined not to intervene too early. Now I feel terrible
     
  10. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    I have pen G and Biomycin, which is better?
     
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  11. Moers kiko boars

    Moers kiko boars Well-Known Member

    Apr 22, 2018
    Oklahoma
    Unfortunately this is how we learn
    Please dont be to hard on yourself. We all have regrets on what we could have or should have. Each situation is new/ and we can write it down to remind us &. Be more prepared.next time.
    Until goats can talk with us..we will do the best we can in all types of experiences.
     
  12. farmerA

    farmerA Active Member

    100
    Sep 4, 2019
    Oregon
    I'm so sorry for your losses but please don't be hard on yourself. I went through something similar in February which was my very first kidding experience and learned a lot. One of the biggest things was not to be hard on myself after doing everything I possibly could. Sounds like you are doing amazing by your girl and needn't beat yourself up. Loss is so hard but unfortunately it happens sometimes and there may not have been anything you could have done about it.

    I agree that doing a uterine flush on Mama at least twice a day for 3 days would be of huge benefit. I won't go into details other than to say you may be surprised by the things that may come out and you will be so relieved that they're out and not left inside her. Antibiotics are important as well. I personally keep my goats for milk so I would milk her but I would dump the milk that may be tainted with antibiotics. I might look and see if there is any literature that says how long you should avoid the milk for whatever it is you're using -- I would think at least a couple after she's done with her course but I'm more paranoid than pro on that front tbh.
     
  13. Damfino

    Damfino Well-Known Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Right behind you
    Oh, so she had two more in there? I must have missed that part. I'm so sorry, but at least this means you probably don't need to check for more. Did she pass the afterbirths? That would be my biggest concern now.
     
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  14. Damfino

    Damfino Well-Known Member

    Dec 29, 2013
    Right behind you
    Don't feel terrible. With a decaying kid in there, this was not a normal presentation and there was probably no way to know for sure when to intervene. Even experts get these things wrong and it's no one's fault.

    I've never done a uterine flush so others will have better advice about that than me. If she's doing ok, eating well, looks like she has energy, and you want milk, start milking her right away. It will be good for her. It releases oxytocin (a feel-good hormone) and it stimulates contractions which will help her expel all that nasty stuff inside. It will also give her a purpose and something to look forward to each day. The caution is that if she's run down it could be hard on her. Take a look at her condition and try to make the best judgement call. Good luck!
     
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  15. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    Yes, I followed ksalvagno’s advice and went in to check for more. I got one pulled into the birth canal and she pushed it out, the other came right after.
     
  16. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    I had to do one when I assisted a few years ago, my recollection is you make a weak tea color of iodine and water and I have a tiny tube that fits a 30cc syringe, and lubricant of course. It works well.

    She is passing the afterbirth, about 2 feet worth. I tied it up in a glove so it’s not dragging. She’s eating like crazy. I waited for afterbirth for 4 hours and I ended up giving her a dose of Biomycin and went inside, it’s been a long 24 hours and I need sleep in a bed, not in a stall. Watching her looking everywhere for her babies is heartbreaking. She’s in a split stall with my Pyrs, they can’t get to her but they are good company.

    Tomorrow starts a milking adventure - first freshener.

    I’ve always milked once a day and let the kids have the rest, can I still milk once a day?

    Her condition is fair, her coat started looking rough the last few weeks.
     
  17. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    That is what was hard about making a judgment call, she was never in hard labor or in distress. She had a few mild pushes, but she was up moving around, eating, doing normal early labor stuff like stretching. She had some brown discharge which is when I checked, but I didn’t go deep because she wasn’t dilated enough. The second time I checked put her into the second stage labor.
     
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  18. NDinKY

    NDinKY Well-Known Member

    539
    Aug 3, 2019
    Kentucky
    I’m very sorry for your losses. We had one this year who sounds similar. First freshener, had early labor signs and some brownish goo. I kept checking on her all night, but no signs of active pushing. Finally at about 6 am she started pushing. She got the first one half way out then I had to grab and pull. It was like there was no lubrication. Kid was DOA. Second kid came, was huge, and also DOA. Third kid was fortunately alive. Had to help pull all 3 but didn’t have to go in.

    She’d taken a hard hit from the herd queen a couple days prior. I’m pretty sure that is what caused the complications. Learning experience at the expense of my goats. Next time I see brownish discharge I’m calling my vet and not waiting for things to progress on their own.
     
  19. Breezy

    Breezy Member

    49
    Jan 17, 2020
    Georgia
    Sorry you had to go through that as well. I’ve decided the herd queen and others eats separate than the pregnant goats - grain time is when she gets mean
     
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  20. NDinKY

    NDinKY Well-Known Member

    539
    Aug 3, 2019
    Kentucky
    After this experience, we’re thinking about having two doe areas. One for pregnant does and one for non. The herd queen wasn’t pregnant at the time, and I’m wondering if the hormones in the air made her more aggressive. Or maybe she was just being a total jerk.
     
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