Second set of test results are in

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by Kfin, Jan 19, 2011.

  1. Kfin

    Kfin New Member

    347
    Jun 23, 2010
    Canyon, TX
    And all three girls tested Positive for CAE again :(

    Oh well, after talking with my husband we decided we love our girls and we are just going to set up a pen just for them and I will just bottle raise any babies we get from them on a CAE prevention. I am just to sad to let them go.

    Do many of you sell CAE free babies from CAE Positive does?
     
  2. TheMixedBag

    TheMixedBag The Hoofcare and Repro specialist

    Oct 16, 2010
    Glencoe, OK
    My god, I'm so sorry this has happened! Have you informed the breeder?

    Many people do sell CAE-free kids from positive does. Don't forget, many does who test positive only carry the antibodies, or will never show symptoms, making it perfectly safe to breed them and bottle-feed.
     

  3. 4hmama

    4hmama New Member

    467
    Jan 9, 2009
    No. Central WV
    SO sorry to hear about your goats. :( I would certainly tell the breeder.... If I were her, I would want to know. There are several people that raise babies on CAE prevention...I'm sure you will get some great answers on this question. Hang in there!
     
  4. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Im very sorry to hear that Kassie :hug:
    You have a good plan though and with persistance, you can get CAE free kids by bottle feeding.

    I would start searching now for a suitable and economical milk or replacer....this will give you time to enjoy the births without worry once kids arrive :hug:
     
  5. Sunny Daze

    Sunny Daze New Member

    307
    May 18, 2010
    Fairplay, MD
    Sorry to hear that :( Having CAE pos. does will definitely hurt your sales. Most people from clean herds will not buy from a herd with CAE, even if they raise on prevention. There are too many variables that could go wrong (don't catch the birth in time, don't heat treat/pasteurize long enough, etc.) Personally I would either try and send them back to the breeder or send them along and start over with a clean herd. This isn't really the way you want to be starting out. Just my two cents...

    P.S. if you definitely are going to keep them, I hear some people will super glue teats to make sure kids aren't able to nurse in case they aren't there to catch the birth (then you have to pick the glue out later). Tape isn't very reliable. Also having exact breeding dates so you can induce and make sure you are there will be helpful.
     
  6. nutmegfarm

    nutmegfarm New Member

    543
    Dec 22, 2009
    NE Ohio
    So sorry to hear about that...but I did have a friend who had some positive does, she kept them completely separate in almost a different herd, of positive and negative animals and did this quite successfully for years in fact (she ended up selling the positive herd, but regardless it can be done) With the right management, they can be perfectly fine. I bought a buck out of a doe that later turned up positive, and his last test this past november read 0 still. By practicing CAE prevention by pulling kids, no contact with mom, and heat treating milk or putting them on replacer, they could turn out just fine.
     
  7. TheMixedBag

    TheMixedBag The Hoofcare and Repro specialist

    Oct 16, 2010
    Glencoe, OK
    That's actually a good point. While the does themselves will be perfectly fine, many people won't buy OR sell to people who have goats who tested positive for CAE, regardless of what kind of program they have. This is what bugs me so much about it. You have gorgeous does who can produce absolutely beautiful, quality babies, and yet, because they tested positive for a nothing disease, you can get shunned entirely.

    So, that leaves you with a couple of options, depending on what you're aiming for. If you want to keep a reputation and get higher prices for kids, you'll probably have to sell them. Either that or just choose not to care, mention CAE prevention, and go with the flow.

    Sorry for the slight rant, I'm just a little upset at having to sell my own doe over this very problem.
     
  8. becca

    becca New Member

    6
    Dec 6, 2010
     
  9. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
  10. comingsummers

    comingsummers New Member

    335
    May 6, 2010
    Northern New Mexico
    I'm so sorry... It sounds like you have a good plan and I hope that you don't have trouble selling the kids. I personally would buy from you if I was into LaManchas and was in your area. But I'm one of those very few people that don't think that CAE is alway a death sentence. I know it can be bad, but if the does don't have any symptoms I don't see any reason to get rid of them as long as you practice prevention. That's just me and I openly admit that I am NOT an expert and that I could be very wrong in my thinking. Anyway, I hope that things go well for you when it comes time to sell and that you are able to find good homes!
     
  11. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I also want to add that the milk from your does is very useable to you...CAE does not affect humans at all, it can be used for anything you want except of course baby goats. Now, there is a possibility of udder issues with CAE positive does, some are either prone to severe congestion or constant battles with mastitis, the congestion basically leads to decreased milk production and "meatiness", not all CAE positive does are afflicted but it is a possiblity, any producing doe is at risk for these afflictions but those that have a compromised immune system are more likely to develop them.
     
  12. TheMixedBag

    TheMixedBag The Hoofcare and Repro specialist

    Oct 16, 2010
    Glencoe, OK
    The reason I call it a nothing disease is because:
    1. The only affordable and readily available tests test for antibodies, something that's actually beneficial. Does with antibodies don't always have the virus, in fact, I'd wager a good portion don't.
    2. Roughly 10% of goats will ever be affected in any way. Compare that to other diseases commonly tested and culled for, like Johne's and CL.

    There was a couple of articles I read with vets, lab techs and a few breeders, and most of them agreed that the only real symptom of CAE is the market value of the goat. It sounds nice to be able to say "CAE-free herd", or CAE prevention herd. It's not that it's something we should ignore, but it's not something we should put priority on, either. If a doe's good, keep, her breed her, prevent.

    I'm not trying to start an argument on it or anything (probably sounds like I am-been a crappy night, and its probably not gonna be a good day), it's good to hear other's opinions about your own opinions.
     
  13. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    The Mixed Bag has a point - The CAE testing is just for the antibodies and as long as the doe/s aren't showing symptoms of the disease and the owner is prepared to pull and bottle feed then breeding them is no issue in my book
     
  14. Kfin

    Kfin New Member

    347
    Jun 23, 2010
    Canyon, TX
    Thanks everyone for all the tips and pointers. The day after I posted this I had lasik eye surgery and was not able to log back on to reply, so sorry for the long delay.

    I am still not 100% sure what I am going to do. Part of me says to sell these three and start fresh and another part says to keep my three girls even if I never use them again, just because I know I will give them a great home, and I could still use them just have to bottle raise the kids.

    I know for a fact I will bottle raise the kids, but I just don't know what to do about my three girls. I love them so much and I think if I found a great home that someone just wanted to take all three and keep them as pets, I would let them go to that kind of home in a heart beat.

    I did call the breeder today and tell her that their test came back positive again. She is baffled by it, and said she does not understand how that could be. She told me she kept 6 kids out of that same crop of kids and would send in test on those 6 in the next few days and let me know what the test come back as. She said she does the more expensive testing that is like $25/per goat because she does not like the test that only test for the antibodies. Anyhow I am going to kind of wait until she gets her test results back, because if they come back negative then there has to be something wrong so I will do the test again but this time do the one she runs that cost more. So I am still waiting.

    Is it possible for them to test positive on the Elisa test but negative on the test that cost $25, from what I understand is the Elisa test for the antibodies, and the other test for the actual disease?
     
  15. jduwall

    jduwall New Member

    565
    Aug 7, 2009
    I am so sorry your have to go thru all this...it is a shame...
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    where does she test and what is the name of the test? I have never heard of one that tests for the actual disease but not saying its not out there but even my vet said there wasnt one (he is up on all the newest stuff so Im a bit interested in what this lady says).
     
  17. Kfin

    Kfin New Member

    347
    Jun 23, 2010
    Canyon, TX
    Its a test that is from Colorado University, and the people we bough our Buck from also told me that is the only test he uses as well. Its called the Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis Virus (CAE) - PCR and it is $25 per goat.

    The people we got Gambit from are going to Colorado university and they are in Vet School and he told me that is the most accurate test available. and then when I talked with the breeder of my girls today, she also told me that's the only test she uses.

    Anyhow that's the one she said she would be using this time, and if hers comes back negative I am doing that same test. We will see??
     
  18. Sunny Daze

    Sunny Daze New Member

    307
    May 18, 2010
    Fairplay, MD
    Well couldn't that mean her does could be carriers just are not expressing the disease? Maybe that is why her tests came back negative? I wonder if they have the antibodies doesn't that mean they have likely been exposed and can pass it on, even if they don't exhibit symptoms? Just curious, I haven't ever heard of this other test...
     
  19. Hidden Waters Farm

    Hidden Waters Farm New Member

    444
    Oct 3, 2010
    Maine
    Kfin - I'm sorry your first experience with these goats was a bad one. I have a feeling you are quite attached to them! I know I would personally have a hard time giving them up as they were my first goats. So I would probably pen them up together and just bottle raise the kids like you suggested. All 3 are nice looking girls.
     
  20. TheMixedBag

    TheMixedBag The Hoofcare and Repro specialist

    Oct 16, 2010
    Glencoe, OK
    Them having the antibodies can mean any number of things, but if they have them and no symptoms, odds are pretty good that she either has the disease and can fight it off with no problems, hence no symptoms, or that she has the antibodies (passed on from dam), but isn't an actual carrier of the disease. The latter is preferable, but unless you're willing to pay (a lot), it's impossible to find out.

    Got this from wsu.edu:
    Yes. WADDL is working with USDA scientists in the development of a polymerase chain reaction (PCR), which tests for CAE virus specific nucleic acid. Current PCR assays have lower specificity (more false positives) than the antibody assays. The PCR assay may become practical and financially affordable enough for routine testing, especially in goats that have delayed seroconversion.

    According to this, right now, ELISA is more accurate than the current PCR test, which means the expensiveness of it isn't worth it yet...