Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant- Final update PG 4!

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by ProctorHillFarm, May 31, 2009.

  1. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Okay- this story is VERY frustrating, Im so mad I could spit :veryangry:

    We bought this kid from a top notch farm, I wont say who, the transporter informed us all the kids looked a bit sick when they picked the kids up. I really trust and value the transporters opinion, and I know they were taken care of very well on their trip home.

    We get the kids home and one of them is definately very skinny, sickly, snotty nose, and a dirty butt.
    We put the kids in quarantine and give them all their goodies to get them back to shape and get rid of all the snotty noses and everyone is looking good except for the kid with the dirty butt.
    So we start treating him with DiMethox (Albon) and Pepto for a week as soon as he got here- doesnt do a thing, have the vet out she says to put him on bio-sponge too, so we add that to the mix for another week, nothing no changes, she runs another fecal he is clean as a whistle but LOADED with cocci (duh- I knew that) so we put him on SMZ and Trimethoprim, biosponge, and pepto we've been doing this for another week. This kid looks TERRIBLE, he is skinny, dull, and I definately think its affecting his growth. We have had this kid for a month now and we cant get rid of this.
    What else can I do? Hes been getting pro-bios in addition, he was also copper bolused, and got vit A&D and Vit E/S. He has a relative appetite, but he is not improving AT ALL.

    I guess what Im most upset about is the breeder insists this kid was not sick when he left the farm (which I know was not the case) and hasnt offered much advice at all, and I think they were actually annoyed that I asked for "help" to get the kid better since we havent been able to make a dent in this........ :sigh: I spent over $1400 on animals from them, I mean a little "customer service" :shrug:
     
  2. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    They sold you sick goats which is not what you paid for. The breeder HAS to give you what you paid for! They may be a big breeder, but there is no excuse for that. You need to tell them there is going to be problems if they don't help you out with this. Take pics of the kids, get a statement from the shipping company and make sure the breeder AT LEAST helps you, if not covers patial vet bills, gives you a refund, etc. Their reputation is on the line if they don't do something. I know being shipped from their farm to you, the kid didn't pick up cocci and drop a bunch of weight on the way home. That is NOT fair to you whatsoever and you need to tell the breeder this. Don't be afraid to say what you need to say just because they are a large breeder.

    Sorry if I sound harsh, but that REALLY makes me mad!! You should NOT have to pay that much on top of buying and shipping costs. That's ridiculous. It's going to take a lot of kids to pay for the goats you just bought and that's not how it should be.

    Sorry for ranting, but that really angers me. I can't imagine how you must feel. Hang in there! :hug:
     

  3. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    I know- Im extremely frustrated about it. Even more frustrated that I felt so highly of this farm and intended to add a few more of their kids to the farm to work with their lines in linebreeding :veryangry:

    Ive gotten pathetic one line email responses since the transaction occurred and the kids arrived at my farm- though Ive been cordial in the emails and honestly asking for advice on what track to take to get this kid back to health.

    My husband is livid and wants to sell every animal we own with their herd name on it, while I dont think thats entirely neccesary, the more I think and write about it, the more irate I get too.

    :sigh:

    My biggest concern right now is we are going to lose this kid if we cant turn him around soon.
    I dont know what else to do for him to try and get rid of the cocci.

    Suggestions?
     
  4. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    I am so sorry you are dealing with this! Cocci is awful.....and the fact that he came to you in such poor condition does mean that he was ill before he left the original farm, in my opinion and experience, cocci doesn't take long to affect a kid, but if seen asap that kid will recover fully.
    The problem with "big breeders" most times is that the number of animals overwhelms and the push to get them moved is at the top of the list and sometimes those sickly animals are not "seen". This breeder needs to have their eyes opened and yes, you do need to assert some aggresiveness in having them own up to the situation, but unless you contacted them within days of the kids arrival as to his condition, they can say that since he's been with you for a month theres nothing they will do, it is very frustrating and I do understand your grief and anger.

    I have had great results with Albon....but in your case switching him to a different course of treatment may benefit him, try giving Corid....seems that some have had more success with this than the Di-Methox and Albon. How old is he? You said that he does have an appetite....do you think that if he was offered a milk bottle he would take it? I'm only asking because sometimes the benefits of goats milk will add to the recovery efforts as well as fill the voids in the nutritional needs.
    CDtrum has had lengthy posts on the cocci treatments of her boys, you may find something there to help your buckling.
     
  5. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    I'm so sorry for your troubles.... :( ....just after you got this goat....did you take it right to the vet for treatment immediately? If so.... that is a good indication ....that the kid could not of gotten cocci from your place(proof).....Get a vet note and records of how long..... the kid has been treated....been tested for cocci and confirmed to have it......and has been treated and this is not being fixed.....also have the vet write down ...that it doesn't take over night to get cocci and to be so thin and ill.........show what drugs/treatments were used on this goat.............Tell the breeder .........You have made repeated attempts ....and have the proof....of making that attempt with a vets recommendations and treatment......and the animal is not responding to them.... tell the breeder ...you feel that........You should be refunded or something done to help you........tell her that you respect her as a breeder ....and she has very nice animals......but you have to say that... you do need her help...one way or another.... :hug:

    When you buy an animal... it should be healthy to start .....when you get them......if the animal is not healthy and you have repeatably tried to make the goat healthy and have proof with a vet (dated the day you received the animal or at least a day after).......rightfully......the breeder should give you a replacement or your money back......
    As for the cocci wow......I really don't know what else to use....but I use corid ....that works well for me....but some others say it don't work for them............DiMethox (Albon) is suppose to of been a good drug for cocci.....I am really at a loss here.....That breeder needs to respond......to you..... :hug:
     
  6. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    Oh no- the breeder was contacted the day after we got them about the condition of all the kids and a little note "they all arrived safely and we are happy to finally get them here " :roll:

    ETA- the kid had a dirty butt when he was picked up- I was told by the transporter that the breeders actually wiped some of the poo off of him while they were there :GAAH:

    I even emailed the other day to let them know we were still battling it, and I got the response that they have never had a kid not respond to Albon......

    He is 3 months old- he was born in the beginning of March

    He will still drink milk- actually I had milked the does and the bucket was still sitting on the milkstand when I pulled him out to dose him yesterday and he drank a bit (the kids there are all pan fed- really wierd to watch the kids go nuts for milk in a bowl! :slapfloor: )

    I had stopped giving the milk since he was more or less weaned when he came and I didnt want to scour him further by re-introducing it. But I guess it cant make him any worse than he is now....
     
  7. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

  8. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    Great info you found! Now, the directions say to mix with water....do not do that, Stacey has had great success with dosing straight from the bottle. Also, Corid does deplete the thiamine in the system...more so than any of the sulfa drugs. After the course of treatment with Corid, wait 2 days and give him a dose of B complex to get the b vitamin level back to normal. And have another fecal run at the end of the course to see how it has helped. Doseage is according to weight...but straight from the bottle, no dilution as the kid won't be getting the amount of drug needed to erradicate the cocci.




    What Pam has said is right, if you have the vets invoices with the dates on them, make copies and send her the proof of your efforts, you paid for a healthy kid and you have yet to see what you paid for, if anything she should refund at least half his cost or replace him with another that is healthy.

    I don't have "top quality" goats, but they are worth their weight in gold to me. I did have a situation last year with a doeling that got sick with cocci. She had already been paid for and was to leave with her sister the week she was diagnosed. I am lucky that she was the only 1 of 9 kids that had the overload, her new mom was given the choice of a refund or waiting until she was well to get her. She chose the latter and the little doe was with me until she was healthy again...thank goodness I have a great vet that worked with me.
     
  9. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    See now I went and read Cdtrums cocci issue- and it seems that the sulfa would be the best thing for him since hes so overloaded. Which is what we have been doing- the vet also said that if it were something bacterial going on as well, that the SMZ and Trimethprim would clear it up.......others have said that the corid is a better preventative than treatment.

    :hair:
     
  10. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    See, with CD trums boys, she had been using the corid with no results, in your case the albon hasn't had the effect needed, switching to a different med....in your case corid and in her case the albon may just be the answer. The fact that his breeder uses Albon may be the reason it is not working for you, his system has built immunity to it.

    Different meds work well in some areas and others not so well.
     
  11. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    Oh, wow. That is so frustrating! I am so sorry you are going through this. Health of kids and not being able to see the farm/surroundings is the biggest reason I have not had kids shipped in yet. . . not sure that I ever will.

    We had an issue with Albon not working on one doe kid. . . still don't know why but it didn't work. I switched to Di-Methox and it cleared up. :shrug:

    To try and firm up his stools, you could try slippery elm bark powder. The goats love the taste too. I think this is a good herb to have on hand at all times. About as essential as a good dewormer, imo. Fiasco Farms has lots of info on it. It is especially good for any digestion problems.

    What's the dosaging you used? Can the coccidia become resistant to cocci meds? I would think so. . . would it be safe to up the dosage?

    That really sickens me that they would send a kid home with runny poop!! Yikes! And that they would wipe it off in front of the buyers. . . :shocked:
     
  12. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    Well Albon IS Dimethox so they are essentially the same thing :shrug:

    I was dosing at 5 ccs undiluted (same I always do if cocci pops up- and their bums are usually dry by the second dose!)

    Thats why we switched to the SMZ- still a Sulfa drug but with the added trimethoprim

    Is pepto the best thing to us- or should I try like kaopectate or something?

    capriola- where could I get the slippery elm bark powder from? Im willing to try anything at this point!
     
  13. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    Yeah, that's what stumped me too. With this doe though, she had runny poop (I see runny poop, I automatically start cocci meds, just in case). It was probably just a digestive problem though. I switched to the Di-Methox but also switched to a different milk source at the same time. So, I am not sure what cleared it up. :shrug:

    I purchased it from here: http://www.bulkherbstore.com/Herbs?id=juXgZFYa
    I plan to always keep it on hand.
     
  14. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    I think I would give him strait Thiamine shots(after you are finished with treatment) if you are using Corid, since like Liz said, it depletes the body of thiamine more than the other sulfa drugs. Also, another thing to consider giving him after treatment is done is aloe vera juice orally, about half an ounce twice daily. This will help to heal his stomach and encourage the growth of new(good) bacteria.

    If you have a health food store near you, you can also get some Grapefruit Seed Extract, it is extremely potent and probably about half a cc twice a day would help, it will help the Corrid with getting rid of the cocci.

    If he still is having diarreha you can give him slippery elm, you can mix it in warm water and give it to him orally. Slippery elm also has worm expelling properties to it.

    Good luck and hope he gets better soon :)
     
  15. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    ProctorHill....I am so sorry for what your having to deal with as I just went through pretty much the same thing, except I only bought one kid from a very well known breeder in my neck of the woods......I do agree with Liz on buying from large breeders, I think they have to many to notice when something is not right with one kid......mine came home also with snotty nose, cough and 2 days later running fever with pnuemonia in right lung.......I took him into see vet and had fecal ran and he was loaded in cocci......we started with Corid and I did 2/5days rounds with him and no luck, so vet changed him to Albon and last week fecal was clear! He still is not 100%, still dealing with bit of cough and clear runny nose, mainly in the mornings....but no more fever!.....he has also been on 2 different antibiotics! I know how very frustrated you are right now... I know that some do give the Corid undiluted, which may be the ticket.....I was afriad to do it as my vet said absolutely NO.....that it can be dangerous, so I didn't try it, but I did give it at a stronger dose and it still didn't work for me, but Corid work great for me last year when I brought my first two kids home and they had it. Oh, one more thing....I went ahead and treated for lung worms with Ivermectin because of chronic cough and since eggs don't show up on regular fecal....vet didn't really think it was lung worms, but I treated anyway just to cover ourselves.
    I pray that your little guy turns around soon! :hug:
    Denise
     
  16. sweetgoats

    sweetgoats Moderator

    Oct 18, 2007
    Peyton CO.
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    I am so sorry that you are dealing with this also. OK, I might of missed it, did you take them to the Vet? I had two cases of Cocci ever here. one we lost to it because I had no idea what it was and it was Years before I found these great sites. Anyway the second one was not looking good and so we took a stool sample to the vet and he was VERY loaded with Cocci. He had us do the Chorid and they also gave something else. It was a tube I THINK. It has been 7 years ago so I am not real sure what it was, but he said that he was so loaded that Just Chorid would not work, so I had to so this other stuff. I would get him to the vet and send a copy to the breeder.
     
  17. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    Yep we have been working hand in hand with the vet following her advice.
    I ordered the Corid- and I also ordered some stuff for his gut a probios type of thing, and electrolytes
    Poor little guy :sigh:
     
  18. cdtrum

    cdtrum New Member

    Aug 25, 2008
    Northern Indiana
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    I too tried my best to go with my vets advice, it is hard sometimes as you read other things that you think might work better. We have been on this long road for almost 3wks and I'm finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel. I went out this evening and just sat and watched my two little guys play.....probably first time since bringing my little sick one home, that I actually saw him running and jumping and playing with the other......it made me feel so good! My little guy hasn't even been able to get his CDT, which I think we will do tomorrow.
    Oh, and I also called the breeder when I realized how sick he was and she just kind of blew me off....I have not bothered to contact her again. My guys are not show quality, but they are my pets and I care for them and love them very much and thought since I was going with such a known breeder that I would get a healthy kid to add to my little herd, instead I brought home a very sick little guy and caused my other new little (very healthy) kid to get sick.
    Hang in there! Denise
     
  19. yonderhill

    yonderhill New Member

    182
    Jan 15, 2009
    Upstate NY
    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    we already spoke about this.. but I wanted to add the dosages I used for the pepto... I was using 10cc three time dailyy for a 28lb goat.. this cleared up the diarrhea in about 2 days (I amnot sure where I got the dosage info) I am not sure how much you are dosing, so I just wanted to add this quick..
    This totally stinks :veryangry: I am sorry you are going through this :hug:

    I don't know what to say about the breeder... mostly because I just can't believe someone would send out a visibly ill kid :shrug: What is up with that.. I don't really care how "big name" a farm is, or how many animals they have.. sub-par husbandry is just not right... and what happened to customer service? don't people realize the economy has tanked.. That we choose where to spend our hard earned dollars.. If you can't provide animals that are healthy and thriving and then ignore the pleas of your buyer, I would take my dollars elsewhere... I'm sorry this doesn't help you now but it is infuriating. As for contacting the buyer, just stick with the facts that you have.. any documented proof of illness.. remain cordial (kill them with kindness) no need to burn any bridges.. just be persistent, keep e-mailing, call, write.. send copies of everything.

    Again this just sucks

    Jennah
     
  20. ProctorHillFarm

    ProctorHillFarm New Member

    Re: Seemingly incurable coccidia- and a rant

    Jennah- wow no he definately is not getting that much pepto- hes probably getting half that - I will up the dose for him! :thumbup: