Should I give Penicillin?

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Firestone Creek Farm, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Firestone Creek Farm

    Firestone Creek Farm New Member

    432
    Jul 11, 2008
    NC, USA
    I have a 1 month old kid who has been acting off for a couple of days now. She had a bout of scours (maybe 12 hours) so I gave her some Pepto and started Di-Methox since I had another kid a while back who responded well to it. At the time, she was standing in a corner, depressed. No fever. She was disbudded 2.5 weeks prior and had her first CDT, but I still went ahead and did a Tet Antitoxin because she was acting weak and grinding her teeth. I couldn't get her to eat, and every time she would latch on to mom, she would take 2 or 3 sucks and then just drop her head and give up. On day 2, I started electrolytes orally and continued Di-Methox--diarrhea stopped. She was still withdrawn and acting weak. She's not twitching or circling or anything, but she does hold her head odd and staggers a bit occasionally. She wants to lay down all of the time, so I have been forcing her up every hour or so, making sure she can still walk around.

    Then I started thinking polio... and I see that it can have scours as a symptom, too! So, with the way she is acting, I am thinking that's a good possibility, and the Di-Methox has probably reduced the thiamin even more and made it worse. So I am discontinuing the Di-Methox as of today, and I gave her a SQ dose of Vit B Complex last night, and today she has had one shot of it, SQ, and 1 dose orally with some Nutri-drench and more electrolytes. I hope I am giving enough of the Vit B. I gave her 1 cc oral and 1 cc SQ. The Vit B Complex I am using is not fortified, so it only has 12.5mg of B1 in it. Should I be giving more? About thirty mins after the last SQ dose she was up walking around and acting more energetic, but then it faded, and now she's laying around again. Should I give more? How much?

    The lytes I am using have some probios in them, so I hope that helps some. But I also, after reading about the closeness of the symptoms for listeriosis and polio, wonder if I need to treat for that, too!! Should I be giving her Pen? And if I should, how much and how often since she's only 1 month old and only weighs about 5 pounds? From what I read on Tennessee Meat Goats site, they said to give her a huge dose. Should I wait, or should I medicate...

    Oh, I also gave her a tiny bit of Safeguard earlier, too, just in case there's a problem there. There shouldnt' be, but we've been having this cold/hot/cold/hot weather, so who knows!

    Angie
     
  2. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    With no fever, don't give the pen. Is her poop still runny or like logs? I would continue with the DiMethox as well as give her some nutri drench, DiMethox does not "wipe out" the thiamine in her system the way some cocci meds do...also, get her to take a bit of water either a bucket or a syringe. The eating she is doing is fine. Watch her temp and don't give any more B vitamins, if this is cocci you are counteracting the Di Methox with the B comp.

    If you have had one kid with coccidia before, you will have another sooner or later, did you ever have a fecal done to confirm? As far as polio or even listeria, I think 4 weeks is a bit young for these, it seems to me that coccidia is more likely.
     

  3. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I have to totally agree with Liz.... she has great advice.... :thumb:
     
  4. Firestone Creek Farm

    Firestone Creek Farm New Member

    432
    Jul 11, 2008
    NC, USA
    Ok... hmmm. The thing is that she seems to actually be feeling better even in the last couple of hours with the extra Vit B and no Di-Methox. So, I'm not sure what to do. She actually does not have the runs now. She only had them for the first day and then it completely stopped. I hadn't confirmed with a fecal on coccidiosis on the other kid either; I gave him 5 days of Di-Methox and he was better. It's impossible to find a goat vet around here. The closest one is over an hour away and closed on weekends. :( Vets here don't do goats, and if they do, they have no experience with Nigies or small goats--only meat goats; it's hard to even find a livestock vet. It seems like they are all small animal vets anymore, and that's it.

    I just had her out about an hour ago and gave her more electrolytes and Nutri-drench. She was nibbling at some leaves a little.
     
  5. Firestone Creek Farm

    Firestone Creek Farm New Member

    432
    Jul 11, 2008
    NC, USA
    Oh, and today would be day 4 of the Di-Methox. Wouldn't there have been some kind of improvement by now? It seems like the Vit B brought her around more, but I don't know... lol. She doesn't have scours though... and she's not gritting her teeth anymore...
     
  6. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    ANY vet can diagnose cocci as its present in all animals(including humans). Take a sample to the vet if you don't have a microscope.
     
  7. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Hi Angie,

    Sorry about the poor baby. :sigh:

    I would definitely get her tested for coccidia. It has about a 2wk prepatent period (time from infection to developing signs of infection) and she is old enough to be showing signs of infection.

    Everything that Liz, toth, and crocee said is absolutely right. Best not to give pen if she doesn't have a fever.

    You can not overdose her on vit.B and if she is looking better after you gave it then you can give her 1cc every 4-6 hours around the clock. Keep her warm enough and don't let her temperature get below 100F or she will not be able to keep her organs functioning and she will not be able to absorb any nutrients you put into her either by mouth or by shot.
    :hug:
     
  8. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    One thing about giving Vit. B when dealing with a cocci overload. The cocci feed of the thiamine so you really want to wait until after the treatment has been started a good 2 days to give it. B-12 won't hurt as long as it doesn't have a lot of thiamine in it.
     
  9. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Woooah :chin: . . . I've never heard of coccidia feeding off thiamine! Does thiamine provide coccidia energy to divide or something? That's really interesting! Thanks crocee! :hug:

    Coccidia is a protozoa that invades the cells of the small intestines and lyses them (pops them) causing intestinal pain, bleeding, and the inability for the animal to absorb nutrients as well as they should.

    If she is feeling better on the thiamine though . . . I think I would probably continue to treat her with B-complex. Maybe don't give her the dose as often though. If it were my kid I would probably treat her ever 6-8 hours and I would watch her very closely.
     
  10. Firestone Creek Farm

    Firestone Creek Farm New Member

    432
    Jul 11, 2008
    NC, USA
    Well, I gave her some more Di-Methox, so today would be day 4 of that. I didn't give her any more B tonight, but I did give her some more electrolytes and some Nutri-drench. She did finally try to make a mad dash around the pen a few times to get away from me at medicine time--haha! So that means she must have some energy at least. :)
     
  11. crocee

    crocee New Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    Northeast Arkansas
    This is a cattle site but it explains how medications we use damage the coccidias ability to use B-1 and other B vitamins, which it needs for its growth and development. When you have a cocci overload you don't want to treat with B vitamins until after the treatment is started.

    http://www.nwnyteam.org/AgFocus2008/Feb ... osisP3.htm

    This is also why I don't use a preventive any more. I treat when I see a need to on a fecal exam.
     
  12. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    I agree with Liz too, no Pen.
    And keep up with your dimethox.
    Not long ago a couple 2 1/2 mo olds came down with the runs. They responded the first day but I kept it up.
    Then another pair strted the runs & they didnt clear up till day 5! I dont know if it was cocci.
    Prayers & dimethox for her recovery!
     
  13. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Thanks crocee! That's really interesting!

    Great news about the cranky baby! :D Keep us updated! :thumb: