Skinny goat will only crawl on her knees... help...

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by SCRMG, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. SCRMG

    SCRMG New Member

    191
    Oct 24, 2012
    I'm new to this forum, I've read it a lot, and it has helped tremendously as I have only had goats for about 1.5 years, but I'm hoping maybe someone out there has run into what I have now. I've asked all my local "goat friends" but they are as much at a loss as I am. I'll apologize in advance for a long story, but I'm hoping the details may help.

    Last March, I had a 5 year old Boer doe kid with triplets. It was a hard labor, and I had to pull all three kids. All was well for about 3 weeks, and then I noticed she was losing weight. I upped her alfalfa, but the weight loss continued, and her milk production reduced. I gave her calcium, which perked her up, but she continued to spiral. Her eye pigment was very light, so I wormed her with Ivomec, and gave her red cell and vitamin B. She would intermittently go off her feed, but the vitamin B would help her regain her appetite. Around this time I also gave her a round of Biomycin and Probios. Nothing I did seemed to be the right answer. She'd perk up, I'd think we were on the right track, and then she'd crash again, each time spiraling down worse. At some point she started knee crawling. I switched from B12 to B1 and this helped for awhile. Then one day, I went out, and she was laying flat, unable to get up on her own. At this point, she was a bag of bones. I decided it was time to put her down. We had fought this thing for four months at that point.

    Her three doelings were undersize for their age, but otherwise healthy. I had a lady looking to lease a couple goats for the summer, and she picked out two of them. The one that stayed here thrived, and has caught up in size. I expected the same from the other two.

    Three weeks ago, the other two came home. They had not been fed properly, and were kept in a horse trailer most of the time. Big lesson learned, and I feel horrible that it was at their expense. One of them had diarrhea, so I started them slowly on medicated grain, and alfalfa. I also wormed them with Ivomec, and gave them each some Probios. One of them is already 1000 times better. She quickly gained weight, and is acting like a kid again.

    The doeling that initially had diarrhea is not doing as well. She perked up for a few days after the worming, but she hasn't gained any weight. Two days ago, she started knee crawling, but would still stand up. As of today, she can only crawl around on her knees. Her appetite is great, and she seems otherwise healthy, but looking at her is like looking in a mirror at her mom. Maybe I'm being oversensitive because of what I went through with her mom. I've been giving her red cell, and I'll give her BoSe tomorrow (I initially overlooked Selenium Defincency because of the similarities), but I'm really at a loss. Has anyone seen anything like this before?

    I would take her to a vet, but that's a losing proposition around here. The last time I took a goat to the vet, I was charged $90 to be told that they didn't have a clue, but would be more than happy to perform a necropsy when she died.
     
  2. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    First thought would be she still has some worms needing to be taken care of.

    Second thought maybe thiamine deficiency though she would deteriorate rapidly.

    Third thought is, was the mum tested for Johnes?

    How old is this doe?
     

  3. SCRMG

    SCRMG New Member

    191
    Oct 24, 2012
    The doe is eight months old. I will try a different wormer in case there's some resistance. I keep Safeguard on hand as well as Ivomec. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I should have tested mom, but at the time I was told it was uncommon around here, and her symptoms weren't right.
     
  4. Di

    Di Crazy Goat Lady

    Jan 29, 2008
    central PA
    I would not use safeguard, unless you think it's tape worms, go with valbazen, not for pregnant does. It could be cocci, I would go ahead and treat with Sulmet or Baycox, symptoms look different in adults. I would treat them with Bo-Se, and also, B-Complex.

    It may be worth it to do some blood testing, we had someone here have a goat with Johnes, better to find out sooner rather then later. Good luck.
     
  5. 20kidsonhill

    20kidsonhill Senior Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    Virginia
    My first thought was a stronger wormer. Safegaurd should be used at 3 x the label dosage for 3 to 5 days.
    You could get a tube of horse wormers, such as Quest or Quest plus(2 times the dosage for horses) and try that, It would for sure help rule out a lot of the worms. the reason I suggest the horse paste, is because it is around $12.00 for a tube and will treat 3 to 5 goats, compared to buying a bottle of Cydectin for cattle or sheep which will start at closer to $100.00

    Another thought is actually treating for coccidiosis instead of just using the medicated feed. Perhaps the medicated feed and ivermectin was enough to lower the counts of parasites in the one doe, but just not enough to help out the other doe. Using Corid or Sulfa-diemthoxine for 5 days orally, may also help. With a young animal like that I always consider coccidiosis as a potential problem.

    Liver flukes is another possibility, and only Ivermectin Plus treats that. It is not the same as the plus in Quest plus horse wormer, the plus in Quest plus, is for tapeworms.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  6. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    I would be getting a fecal done to include coccidia before you do any more worming. You need to know what parasites you are dealing with before you treat.
     
  7. LilBleatsFarm

    LilBleatsFarm Premier Colorado Nigerian Dwarf Breeder

    Jul 18, 2012
    Colorado
    ... And I agree that the goats are most likely mineral lacking.
    If they were in the horse trailer lots, I would also supplement with VitD.

    It's going to take a bit to get them back into shape but a fecal is your first action. While at the vets maybe ask for multimin? It's something like that. Others can chime in here for me because I don't use it but it might be a good shot to have on these goats. That is given via weight - so get a weight if you can.

    HTH,
     
  8. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I agree with Keren, you need to get a fecal done, just guess treatment, is going to make her resistant to worms, it may be cocci. But test for worms and cocci to make sure.

    Her gut may need probiotics and fortified vit B complex.
     
  9. myfainters

    myfainters New Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    Lancaster, CA
    I would be treating her for coccidia ASAP....
     
  10. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    All the parasite possibilities have been well covered, I'm going to ask how her hooves are? Knee walking can be the result of founder.... having an increase in good feed though with the best of intentions can sometimes cause this issue with the hooves.
     
  11. SCRMG

    SCRMG New Member

    191
    Oct 24, 2012
    Thank you for all the suggestions. I just dropped off a fecal sample at the vet's office, and should hear back later today on that. It seems like my little goats are always dropping samples until I am actually waiting on a donation.

    We are Selenium deficient in this area, our BoSe dosage is 2.5 to 3ml per 100lbs. This little girl is about 40lbs right now, so I gave her 1 ml this morning. Unfortunately, she made a run for it as I was injecting it, so she didn't get a full dose. I plan on giving her another .5ml later today. I'll also give her some fortified B complex.

    The wormer I used two weeks ago was Ivomec Plus. I gave her 1ml orally.

    Thinking worse case, on Johne's, isn't she too young to be showing clinical symptoms? I talked a little with a vet, who told me it would be uncommon to see symptoms before she wad 2 years old. I was told testing at her age would be inconclusive, with the exception possibly of fecal testing. However, given her current condition, if it were Johne's, she'll be gone before the results come back. Unfortunately, if this is the case, it seems I'll be better off with a necropsy than testing.

    Hopefully, the fecal will just come back with a high cocci count, and I can start treating her for that.
     
  12. SCRMG

    SCRMG New Member

    191
    Oct 24, 2012
    On the hooves. I trimmed them back yesterday, and checked them out closely. Her hooves look very healthy. Her inability to stand doesn't seem to be associated with any pain in her hooves. When I try to stand her up, it's like her front legs are just too weak. By supporting her chest, I can balance her enough to keep her upright, but she collapses when I remove my hand.
     
  13. Jessica84

    Jessica84 Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    California
    I agree with the rest on worms, but just in case Im going threw a goat with founder (spch). I got the doe from a lady I know very well, not big on grain, she started out just fine (I am also not a big grainer), then she would rest on her knees, then would walk on her knees, and now spends most of her time laying down. I had my brother look at her who is training to be a horse shoer and the man he is working with is big on 'problem hoofs'. He belives its founder. Her ankles are very hot to the touch and now the hoofs are spreading apart (the best I can explain). Just thought I would share if the above does not work.....I wish you the best luck.
     
  14. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
  15. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    Yeah too young for cae or johnes even thpugh mums situation.fits. Gey a faecal dome
     
  16. SCRMG

    SCRMG New Member

    191
    Oct 24, 2012
    You guys are great! Thank you! I just received a call from the vet and the fecal sample contained high levels of cocci. I'm going to start her on treatment, and hopefully that will clear this up and get her better.

    I know it may sound silly, but I was the one who had to put her mom down. That was a first for me, and I told mom I'd take care of the girls that she had fought admirably to raise. Granted she doesn't know the difference, but I do, so I've got a special spot for these girls.
     
  17. rssgnl27

    rssgnl27 Member

    269
    May 8, 2012
    Upstate New York
    This could definitely be responsible for how shes acting- I would look into it! Also, maybe look into CAE, your vet can test for this as well. I don't think its a deworming issue- although maybe for coccidia? With her mothers symptoms CAE could be a very real possibilty.
     
  18. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Glad you had the fecal done, now you can start treatment and get her well. :):cool:
     
  19. 20kidsonhill

    20kidsonhill Senior Member

    Feb 28, 2011
    Virginia
    She is going to be feeling better very soon with the right treatment. Glad you found an answer. Please repeat your coccidiosis treatment after you are done with the first round in 21 days. She will need some time to recover and coccidiosis can bloom every 21 days.
     
  20. SCRMG

    SCRMG New Member

    191
    Oct 24, 2012
    I've gotten 3 doses of the coccidiousus treatment in this little girl, and the good news is, I can already see some weight gain. Baby steps are good, and she was horribly emaciated when I started the treatment.

    The bad news is, she still can't get up off her knees. I've treated several horses with founder in the past, and if it's anything similar in goats, she doesn't have the right symptoms. There is no heat in her hooves or lower legs, and she's not avoiding standing or putting pressure on her legs, she just can't do it. Three days ago, if I stood her up, she would fall as soon as I quit supporting her. Today, I can stand her up, and she can remain in that position until she tries to move. I guess this is progress. Is it possible that she was SO emaciated, that it's just going to take time for her to get strong enough? I attached a picture of her to show how skinny she still is. I just took it today when I was standing her up.

    The one thing I notice when she's standing is that she's not getting full use out of her knee. She's not extending the joint to the point of locking it, so when she tries to move a leg, the unlocked support leg crumbles. In a lot if ways, it reminds me of a selenium defficent newborn. I tried giving her 1.5ml of BoSe on Wednesday, but she kept wiggling everytime I tried to inject her so I don't honestly know how much, if any, actually made it into her system. Should I try again? I know I could overdose her on it, so I've been hesitant to try it.

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