Skinny ribs but fat/swollen around the barrel

Discussion in 'Mini Mania' started by Nigie Girl, Aug 30, 2008.

  1. Nigie Girl

    Nigie Girl New Member

    54
    Oct 19, 2007
    CT
    This is a strange subject but I'm asking this for all the nigie people that I show with at fairs.
    Through the years I've noticed that at fairs the nigies are nearly always skinny around the ribs and fat on their stomachs. For example, my friend has nigies that are 2 years old (in the pictures they are a year and a half). Some of my goats are around that age but mine look completely different. Hers are very short...almost stunted...while mine are 2 inches below the maximum height for a nigie.
    When I touch her does' stomachs, they are hard and round. I checked their eyelids for anemia from worms but the eyelids were pink. When I pinch her does' ribs, I can barely grasp skin and I don't feel fat at all.
    All her does are really really skinny on the ribs and then POOF they have round, hard barrels.
    And it's not just her. Almost every other nigie doe that I've seen at fairs has been the same.
    I feel like mine are big fat tubs or maybe just bigger boned. Well technically they're not FAT because they have just the right amount of fat on their ribs like I guess they're supposed to, and they're stomachs are soft, not like round stones.

    Anyone recognize this or have any recommendations for my fellow nigie friends that I meet at fairs?
    Below are some comparison pictures. The pictures of my friends' does are not the greatest as I was not trying to take pictures of the goats' conformation. Remember...all the does are a year to 1 1/2 years old.
    I was amazed because this year my 2 month old bucklings were the same size as her almost 2 year old does!!!

    oh by the way, I blacked out my friend's face for privacy reasons...so please don't be offended!

    So if anyone has any reasons why the same breed of goat is so different...please let me know! Or if anyone has any suggestions for my friend. She feeds her goats a LOT but they never get any fatter. Like she feeds 2nd cutting hay, caprine challenger, minerals, etc. Maybe the protein block talked about in the other forum would be helpful?

    Her does
    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151 ... ics039.jpg
    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151 ... ics016.jpg
    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151 ... ics021.jpg
    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151 ... ics055.jpg
    My does
    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151 ... 060112.jpg
    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151 ... 060019.jpg
    http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x151 ... l/brie.jpg
     
  2. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    It may be just the build in her breedings, my nigi's Binky and Chief are lean and long with very loose skin, the ones I've seen at the fairs are short and chubby looking....I too feed caprine challengar with usually first cutting hay and all mine seem healthy.
     

  3. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    are her goats registered? judging by the coloration and the style of head and build of her does i'd think there was a litle more pygmy in there then someone is letting on...
    beth
     
  4. Nigie Girl

    Nigie Girl New Member

    54
    Oct 19, 2007
    CT
    yes they are registered. actually..what is kind of ironic is that her goats are a little related to mine because we both purchased them from the same herd. (although I purchased mine when they were doelings about a year before she bought hers). yeah actually I've always thought they looked like pygmies too...who knows?! Poor girl though I feel bad for her because judges always say things to her like "well THESE are what nigerian dwarfs SHOULD look like" and then they point to my goats and I shrug because i'm so embarrassed. I've been giving her advice like "worm them with herbal wormer, give them caprine challenger, give them nutri drench" but so far I guess these things don't make goats grow more dairy!
     
  5. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    well hers are just built differently.

    are yours the same age? They if their bellies are hard then they are eating to much right before fair time. Have her girls been bred/ That tends to change things quite a bit.

    wethers tend to grow more round then long
     
  6. capriola-nd

    capriola-nd New Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Northwest Oregon
    Has she tried (or did the breeder) treat them for cocci? Coccidiosis can stunt the growth of baby goats. I've also noticed goats that have cocci in their system (as with any parasite) that they have bigger bellies but thin ribs, if that makes sense. I was thinking that hers looked a little more "pygmy-ish" but that's just the way they are built. I've seen plenty of Nigerians look "pygmy".
     
  7. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    there could be some pygmy back there a few generations and someone didnt record it right. It could also be that her animals are shorter boided causing them to put the same amount of weight around the middle, where the longer does would show that weight better. Cocci is another thought. What kinds of wormer does she use? The goats may still be wormy, but not life threatoning amounts, meaning they are showing healthy membranes but still havea fare amount of worms in them. Another thing could be the quality of feed. If she isnt feed something that is as nutrituos, her goats could be eating more then yours are. I noticed a huge difference in my goats compaired to a few at our fair. There was a lady stalled near me that her goats were on local grass, where is mine are on an alfalfa orchard mix. My goats ate a lot less then her did. Hers were probably going for more of a nutritional value, where mine got more nutriants while eating less.
    That make any sense?
    hope so!
    beth
     
  8. Nigie Girl

    Nigie Girl New Member

    54
    Oct 19, 2007
    CT
    More answers to questions/comments....

    Liz- yeah I feed caprine challenger too and mine aren't "barrel-like" either!

    StaceyRoop- yeah mine are around the same age...hers are full grown the picture BUT they haven't been bred which might be why. But even when they're bred they only lose weight and develop an udder...hers would be really short skeletons if they lost any more weight! Here's the strange thing...they always have free choice of hay all the time and she gives them TONS of grain so it's not like they're loading up before fair time.

    Capriola-nd- hmm I never thought of that...cocci?! Wouldn't her goats have diarrhea though? and no, she and the breeder did not try to treat them for cocci.

    Sparks879- she rotates wormers (the chemical ones). I've been telling her to try something more natural like Hoegger's herbal wormer. The poor things probably don't have any worms AT all! I mean, their pasture is not infested and when their stools samples have been tested, they have all come out negative. A FEW worms in the stool is normal but they have had none. The thing is, her goats aren't putting "weight" around the middle. their stomachs aren't fat and loose but hard like they have bloat. and I can't grab any skin on their ribs.

    What i'm actually thinking is that her goats might be getting TOO many nutrients. Do you think I should tell her tomorrow (i'll be going to a show with her) that she should give baking soda free choice and use herbal wormer? she is planning on breeding her does this winter so that would solve any of the possible fat that the does might have. Any other suggestions? (It's just SOO strange and I've always wondered about it...and not just her does!)
     
  9. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    they may be getting too much from grain, you say she is giving them a lot of grain. a good base to the diet should be a good quality hay. They should be relying more on hay and less on the grain. She may be giving them too much grain and not enough hay. This could be the reason for the bloated look, as well as them feeling full, but not gaining weight.
    Do you know what kind of hay and grain she feeds.
    As for the worming, i dont disagree with using chemical wormers. But use them sparingly, i run fecals every six to eight weeks and IF the goat has worms i then worm the goat. Worms can become immune to wormers. as for the herbal wormrs. i have not had much luck with them at all. In my experience they dont work. But i am in north west washington, where we have a very wet climate. a good breeding ground for worms. But even with herbal wormers you really only need to to use them when the goats have worms. If she is worming and her goats dont have worms then they dont need to be wormed. She is just spending money on a problem that isnt existing. Even if you run fecals two or three times a year you can get an idea of the worm patturn in your area.
    beth
     
  10. Nigie Girl

    Nigie Girl New Member

    54
    Oct 19, 2007
    CT
    she feeds second cutting hay and caprine challenger (to the does in question---i haven't seen her other goats)
    i will give this advice to her about the cutting back on the excess grain and giving them more hay instead. they seem to eat hay a lot though anyway... :?
    thanks for the input!
     
  11. deenak

    deenak New Member

    296
    Oct 10, 2007
    Ames Iowa
    I have 4 nigerian dwarf wethers. The lillte guys 5 months look like buhdas on legs. THe older boys 1 1/2 years are much leaner looking. They are all from the same farm so I am thinking that the little guys will grow into their barrels!!! I have noticed at the fair that their can be a big difference in appearance of the nigerians.
     
  12. jordan

    jordan Fall Creek Farm

    52
    Nov 22, 2007
    Wisconsin
    Comparing these photos is like comparing apples to oranges. Yours are set up and show overall conformation, hers are not and you can't see much in the way of "type" from her photos.
    Are the judges being specific as to why hers are not meeting the standard? It could be that hers are just not good quality and may be incorrect in conformation.
    Frankly, there are still alot of judges out there who don't really know what an ND is supposed to look like! They are a miniature dairy goat and should be free of excess fleshing (ie no fat over the ribs). The number of over conditioned goats that I see in the show ring is unbelievable!
    The chocolate doe in the attached photos scored 1 point shy of excellent on her linear appraisal, with tops points for dairy character. You can almost see her ribs when you look at her in person and her belly does flare out when you view her from above. She is one of the most dairy looking goats I've seen and there is just no getting any fat over her ribs without her belly looking like it will explode. It is just her body type.

    The photo of the buckskin doe was taken when she was grossly overweight IMO and at the show that this was taken at, placed 2nd in her class (she is a finished CH) behind the chocolate doe. The first time in years she placed less than a Grand or Reserve. What a porker LOL! She was also in a snit, so was bunched up when the pic was taken. Boy can that doe hold a grudge!

    If your friends goats had clear fecals for worms, did they check the cocci levels?BTW your brown and white doe is very nice!
     

    Attached Files:

  13. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Jordon My sweet pea is like your chocolate doe. She is more deap then wide and is VERY long and the judges commented on her dairy character -- that is what moved her up in the line from 4th to 3rd --- more udder capacity may bring her up even more in line. She looks nothing like the goats I see here online or at the show. She has such a different look --- well more like a dairy goat! hehe just a mini version. I know dairy goats as I had them for years previous to getting into the minis.
     
  14. jordan

    jordan Fall Creek Farm

    52
    Nov 22, 2007
    Wisconsin
    It sounds as if your Sweet Pea is what more breeders should be striving towards then! When judging an ND myself, I always imagine an Alpine as the ideal for conformation, just smaller!

    One of the conclusions that I've reached over the last few years of showing is that too many ND owners don't understand what the term "body capacity" actually means and seem to believe that large framed or fat goats have it. Both Moire' (the chocolate doe) and Porchia (the fat buckskin, though she has since gotten back in fighting trim!) have tremendous body capacity.

    The two attached pics are of a couple of my other favorites for conformation. The chammie (Cinnamon) also happens to have one of my favorite udders too! The black and white doe (Morgan) is not fully mature in the photo (pictured as a 14 mo old) but has lived up to her promise as a two year old.
    Lois
    http://www.fallcreekfarm.net
     

    Attached Files:

  15. jordan

    jordan Fall Creek Farm

    52
    Nov 22, 2007
    Wisconsin
    Exactly Stacey!!!
    She is VERY nice! I love being able to see the hips and pins on a doe! How old is she? There are some lines that their udder capacity just doesn't show through until they are 3 or so (Caesar's Villa is one of them).
    Lois
    http://www.fallcreekfarm.net
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    she is 2 1/2 and only freshioned once.

    She comes from Gaymore lines as well as some others I dont know off top my head. Her name is Little Sleepy H Sweet Pea. Her sire is Bresset dogwood Elmo and her dam is Little Sleepy H Fiona (every show you have to write in their names, so that is why I remember those ;) )
     
  17. Nigie Girl

    Nigie Girl New Member

    54
    Oct 19, 2007
    CT
    thanks for all the photos everybody for comparisons! everyone's does are gorgeous! :)
    stacey roop and jordan...both your does have AMAZING conformation. how i wish i could have a larger herd so i could keep some babies! :sigh:
    I'm almost positive that when she had her goats checked for worms, the vet did not check for cocci levels. I will let her know about that.
    oh and by the way...thanks jordan for the compliment! i love my doe brie although I WISH her udder had better rear attachment. but i guess what can I do except improve it in the kids? :shrug:
    thanks again to all the people who replied!
     
  18. Sweet Gum Minis

    Sweet Gum Minis New Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Easley, SC
    I don't see anything wrong with her goats? :shrug: They all look healthy to me. I can't stand a fat Nigerian. Just looks horrible in my opinion. They look like pygmies when fat.

    A goat isn't judged by weight by their girth, its the fleshing around the loins, hips and spine. If they're fat you can't feel the bones. If they're emaciated or underweight they'll be extremely pronounced. If they're healthy you can feel them without seeing them. Doesn't matter how big the rumen is.

    Show goats are not backyard goats. They are anatomically correct and well put together. They are structurally correct with the right amount of proportion in each area of the body. Show goats are deep barreled (IT IS A MUST) for confirmation. You want triangles in a dairy goat's shape. So the deep barrel is healthy, it is correct. Comes into play more with aged goats than kids.

    Just because a goat looks thin does not make it ill or underweight either. A healthy goat has many shapes. You have to judge each in its own skin. Hope this helps.