sold a bottle baby kid - now what do I need to do???

Discussion in 'Kidding Koral' started by kelebek, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    So I thought that I posted this earlier, but I can't seem to find it - moderators - if you see the other post please feel free to delete it!

    My little Nigerian is due on the 28th, day 150.

    I sold one of her kids this morning - not even born yet. The lady seems like a very nice lady, has caprine experience, and has a great vet that I know.

    Anyway - here is my question. She had a bottle baby that was involved in an accident and killed on New Years Eve. She sounds like just a wonderful for a home. She wants to bottle raise again - sooooo,

    Do I let the baby nurse for the first 24 hours to get the colostrum, or do I pull it immediately and bottle feed it the colostrum? When should the baby go to its new home at 24 or 48 hours. I want to make sure that the baby is viable, but also I do not want to bottle raise the little one either.....

    What would you all do??
     
  2. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    I forgot - does anyone have a good contract that I can look at for bottle babies and weened babies that are sold??

    Thanks much!
     

  3. cjpup

    cjpup New Member

    417
    Dec 1, 2007
    TX
    I dont have a contract but I will give you my 2 cents on the situation:

    I dont ever pull babies off mom for bottle feeding nor do I ever sell anyone a bottle baby that isnt even born yet. The only time I would ever sell a bottle baby is after its born and if there is a good reason not to leave it on mom (ie. Mom dies, kid not nursing well, triplets or quads). I never pull off any kid just because a client want to bottle feed it. Kids are much healthier and (in my experience) have a better chance of living if left on mom.

    If you have already made up your mind that you are going to sell it as a bottle baby even if everything is fine with leaving it on mom, then I would suggest leaveing it on mom for the first 24 hours to get the colostrum, unless you have some frozen from another doe. I wouldnt give it store bought colostrum unless you absoluetly have to.

    You also want to make sure the baby is eating really really well on the bottle before you sell him. I have had some latch on right away and others that take a week or so to really get the hang of it. Its all based on the kid. I would atleast keep it until you are sure it will eat well off the bottle.

    I hope this helps.
    CJ
    FinePygmyPals.com
     
  4. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    Thank you for your help.

    Although I do believe that the baby should be with momma - I am not going to deny someone from raising a bottle baby either, as alot of breeders do that with every baby.

    I definately will keep it on mom's colostrum - but should I milk her and give it in a bottle or let him nurse that from mom? I do agree that I want the baby taking the bottle really well before I give the baby to them.

    Thanks
    Allison
     
  5. liz

    liz Active Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I wish you luck with this Allison, but I would have to agree with CJ on this matter. Personally, to me selling something thats not "here" is like counting your chickens before they hatch. If this is something you feel is "right" in your heart, then I would let that baby be with it's mom for at least 2 -3 days. (DAH! How did I get the wrong name???)

    Any how to reply to your ?....If you feel that the "buyer" is a capable enough person to take care of this baby after it leaves you...meaning experience with a bottle baby...then go with your gut. If you can be present at the birth and are able to milk the colostrum from the mom the have a bottle handy to get the baby going, like you said , I think to have it readily take the bottle would be better for it before it goes to it's new home. This way, you'd feel secure enough knowing that it was eating well before it left your care. :)
     
  6. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    There has been no money that has changed hands - so I guess maybe I should say reserved instead.

    If there is a buckling born - she wants the buckling. Her other goat is going crazy without a friend.

    I would typically not do this, but I have talked with the lady and her vet, and she really does know what she is doing.

    Liz - would you let the baby nurse - or give it a bottle only and keep it with me???
     
  7. cjpup

    cjpup New Member

    417
    Dec 1, 2007
    TX
    In my experience, bucklings do worse on bottles than doelings. They require a different amount of milk with extra minerals and vitamins that may not be present in milk replacers.

    I understand that you feel comfortable giving her a bottle baby (ie. talking to her vet) and that is a GREAT start but I would be more inclined to worry about the kids well being, and not just the fact that this lady wants a bottle baby.

    As to your question (I know it was directed at liz but ill answer too) I would probably leave it on mom as long as you can (expecially if its male) then, I would get atleast 1/2 the money from her as a nonrefundable deposit (lets say the kid dies when you switch it over to the bottle, it would be her fault for making you take it off and therefore would need to pay for the money you've lost) Then, when you have the baby eating really well on the bottle, I would have her give you the rest of the money, nonrefundable. THe goal is to reduce your liability as well as reduce the lost revenue from lost stock. Make sense?

    CJ
     
  8. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    CJ - It does - very much so! I didn't think of it in the aspect of possible lost money.

    I will check in and write more in a bit - I forgot that I have to leave for an appointment - I'm going to be late!

    Ut-Oh!

    Talk soon
    Al
     
  9. goatnutty

    goatnutty Active Member

    Oct 9, 2007
    South East,IN
    I agree with Cj and Liz but if your cerain on what you want to do.I would pull it right away because it may be more stressful on the baby if you leave it with mom for 24-48 hours and then take it away.
     
  10. HollowbeadRanch

    HollowbeadRanch New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    NW Alabama
    IMO (and keep in mind that I haven't had to bottle feed yet, but I have asked TONS of questions on here and have probably drove everyone else up the wall :oops: :shock: :greengrin: ) I would leave the kid on it's mom for atleast the first 24-48 hours to make sure that he/she gets plenty of colostrum. Then, as someone on here does it... can't remember who exactly.., I would remove the kid from Mom at about 8PM and not offer it a bottle until the next morning. This way the kid should be good and hungry and shouldn't fight the bottle as much. I have got a bottle feeding schedule for Minis that Teresa gave me if you need it. And yes I would definitely bottle him yourself for a few days to be sure that he is eating well enough, because if for any reason you don't think he is doing well enough on the bottle then I would try and put him back with Mom. Of course all of this is just IMO.
     
  11. goatnutty

    goatnutty Active Member

    Oct 9, 2007
    South East,IN
    I would milk the doe for the colostrum.
     
  12. HollowbeadRanch

    HollowbeadRanch New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    NW Alabama
    But if the baby fights the bottle too much then wouldn't it be possible for the baby not to get the needed amount of colostrum quick enough?
     
  13. PACE

    PACE New Member

    404
    Oct 8, 2007
    Mass
    Note, this is just my opinion, as I have never done this before, but I would pull the baby right when it was born or shortly after birth- maybe 24 hours. That way, it doesn't have a chance to bond with mom, and will completely accept people without a second thought, making it easier on all involved. And then mom won't be looking for her baby so much. If possible, I would take a baby that was part of a multiple birth, so that mom has other kid/s. Giving it its first meal in a bottle probably would make it very easy, instead of trying to convince it to take the bottle after the baby has nursed of the mother. Again, that is just what I think, and the more experienced people know the ins and outs of bottle raising.

    I agree with leaving it with mom, that's what I'll do if I breed, but it's understandable how people want to bottle raise... I want to try it someday! And if the lady knows what she is doing and you are confident she will do everything necessary to raise a healthy baby, then I'm sure it would work out fine. Maybe keep it a few weeks to give it a good, strong start before allowing her to take it home.
     
  14. cjpup

    cjpup New Member

    417
    Dec 1, 2007
    TX
    You hit the nail on the head girly! LOL! When you have a newborn, every second is preciouse and to waste hours or even minutes getting that baby and on a bottle takes away from its time to get colostrum from its mom, thus reducing its chances of living. If you watch your does with new borns, those babies are up and eating AT LEAST every 10 minutes for the first day. Haveing a newborn miss an hour of colostrum, could kill it, or leave it unheathly.

    CJ
     
  15. cjpup

    cjpup New Member

    417
    Dec 1, 2007
    TX
    Me and PACE posted at the same time but I wanted to respond to her post too.....

    Ive had to take week old brothers off mom because the mom couldnt feed them (they were a set of quads) She did great with all four but then started losing milk quickly! Anyways, the boys latched on the the bottle fairly quickly (we used the 8pm thing Brandi mentioned) and the next morning, they latched onto the bottle perfectly! Are are EXTREMELY friendly!!! They are like puppies.

    Then, at 5 weeks, mom have a horrible case of bloat and died. Which ment I had the task of convincing 5 week old girls to take a bottle. One ended up taking the bottle and is also just like a puppy and the other, refused. She never got the hang of it and would actually "steal" milk from other lactating does. She was not as firendly as all the other ones. So, at the end, I had 3 puppy dogs and 1 stand off ish one who we were later able to tame out with daily handlings etc.

    You can tame out a baby at any age, its just convincing them to go on the bottle that will be a problem. In my experience, kids are fairly willing to transfer until they get beyond there first week of being on mom.

    CJ

    PS: And mom gets over it QUICKLY! expecially if there are multiples and she would still have 1 left on her.
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Allison I personally would pull the kid right at birth. Less tramatic on mom as she will have bonded with the kid and call out for hours and days for him.

    I see no difference in bottle feeding a buck vs a doeling I have done both and there is no difference.

    It is easier for a kid to take to a bottle if it hasn't nursed off mom in my experience.

    I think a non refundable deposit is a good idea in any situation when selling a goat.

    Again for me personally I would pull the kid straight from birth and bottle feed the mom's colostrum.
     
  17. HollowbeadRanch

    HollowbeadRanch New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    NW Alabama
    Thank you cjpup. I was just a little curious about that. Like I said, I haen't had to bottle raise one yet, but I have bottle raised MANY other animals and I know how badly they can fight a bottle.

    I think I have got everything I need in the event that I have to bottle one. I have the supplies, feeding schedule, and I know what type of milk supplement I will be using (either whole cows milk or a vitamin d, evaporated milk, and buttermilk mixture that another breeder I know uses)... the only thing I am lacking is the frozen colostrum, so I am just waiting for one to have a single so I can steal a little to freeze :greengrin:

    Allison, I hope everything works out well whatever you decide to do :greengrin: ! Keep us posted as to how things go!! And if you need any help I know their are plenty of people on here that have bottle raised (for one reason or another) many times before, and I am sure that they have tons of knowledge they can share with you.

    This is a rough draft of what I usually right up as a receipt for babies that aren't old enough to wean. I sign it, the buyer signs it, I print out a copy after it is signed and the buyer gets the copy:

    I, Your Name , accept a Non-Refundable deposit in the amount of $$$ for # of goats, gender, & any other specifics you want to add . The total purchase amount is $$$ , and the remaining balance of $$$ is to be paid when the animal(s) is picked up. The animal(s) is to be picked up no later than Date . Holding fees will be added for each day there after.

    Animal Description-Individual Price$$
    Animal Description-Individual Price$$

    [align=right]Seller Your Signature
    Buyer Buyer Signature
    Buyer Contact Info Ph# and/or email address
    Date Date of Agreement
    [/align]

    You can always omit the part about the pick up date and the holding fees if you don't have a specifc date for the animal(s) to be picked up. Like I said this is just a rough draft of what I usually use, and you can always line it up better with Microsoft Word or something. Maybe someone on here could think of something that needs to be added to it or changed. I hope it helps!
     
  18. PACE

    PACE New Member

    404
    Oct 8, 2007
    Mass
    cjpup, I understand a kid can be tamed just about any age. I got my guys at 3 months old and they were wild! At first they were unaproachable, terrified of people, but with persistence and lots of patience, they started coming to me after about a week begging for attention. They are absolute love bugs now, at age 1 1/2. I didn't use food either, just gentleness and I went at their pace. It's just the fact that I know kids and dams usually bond very strongly, and it must be easier for them to not get super attached to the mothers, then be ripped away. They can't miss something they never had, is kind of what I was saying. I agree with you about the health aspect, and you certainly have more experience in this field than I do. If they get over it quickly, that's great. I was kind of thinking of wild animals, since that's what I've bottle raised before... I volunteer at a wildlife rehab facility thst gets over 50 orphaned raccoons each spring, and the young babies always switch over easier.... now, I know raccoons/squirrels/foxes and goats are VERY different, but that was my point of reference. As to actually feeding, smaller portions very often are best, and I think that following a good schedual would work fine.
     
  19. HollowbeadRanch

    HollowbeadRanch New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    NW Alabama
    I would love to volunteer at a wildlife refuge like that. Do you enjoy it? I also, agree with the statement that it would be better to pull a baby from a det of twins, triplets, or even quads so the mom still has atleast one baby left to take care of.
     
  20. fritzie

    fritzie New Member

    751
    Oct 6, 2007
    TENN
    i have pulled all my babies for 5 years now & i have had as many bucks as does & have never had one die,be sick or because it was bottled raised. i would pull the baby as soon as it was born that way if momma dosen't get to clean it of & bond with it it will not be as stressful on her or the baby. if you can i would milk the momma to get the colostrum. i havce had experimced people want to buy a bottle baby as soon as it is born but i never let them go till they are three days old. by then they are off colostrum(the doe will produce it for 3 days) & taken a bottle really good. i also take deposits on my unborn kids. i have a deposit right now on a buck kid that is born. if the doe that they wnt it from dosen't have a buck i will give them a different choicse of equal quality or if i do not have what they want i will refund there deposit. oh & my buck babies have always taken the bottle4 just as fast as the does.