This month's DG journal....anybody read the CAE article?

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by goathappy, Feb 26, 2010.

  1. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    I got my most recent issue of dairy goat journal today and there was an article about a lady who has found a solution to CAE(I say solution, not cure because I don't know if it actually cures it) but this lady tested her herd in March of last year, and not wanting to cull all of her positive goats she looked into alternatives and found a company in colorado(i think) that sells these rocks that have naturally occuring low radioactivity in them. This lady put the rocks in the goat's water and when she tested again in October, 3/4 of her herd had much lower numbers on the blood tests(testing through bio tracking btw) she also mentioned that her goats were much healthier, with shinier coats, less wormings etc.

    Anyway, I'm all for the natural thing, but I just feel a little leary about using something radioactive.

    What do you guys think? I was thinking more about the overall health benefits, but idk :scratch:
     
  2. kelebek

    kelebek New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    South Texas
    wonder if the milk has been tested for radiation - I know I don't want to drink that milk or byproducts there of.
     

  3. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    Yeah I was wondering the same thing, but this lady drinks and sells milk and kefir from the goats :shrug: It was a very interesting article though, I think I may look her up and email her about the radiation in the milk.
     
  4. Native87

    Native87 New Member

    If you learn any more about this keepus posted please. Its interesting anyway I think. I wouldn't want to glow in the dark or have the goats glow. :)
     
  5. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    haha i would love to glow in the dark myself :D lol jk :p

    I talked to my mom about it, I'm going to email the lady and talk to her and see if any radiation is transferred to the milk.....
     
  6. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    k, I got a reply back from the lady in the article, I'm going to contact the company next week because I think I'm going to try this for some personal health issues, as well as some issues with our dogs, if anybody wants to see more info go to this website: http://www.nighthawkminerals.com/

    Her answers are in purple, and if anybody has any other questions you would like to ask, let me know.

    Hi,

    I just got my newest issue of dairy goat journal in the mail today and I noticed the article about your goats, I found it very fascinating :) I practice natural and alternative methods on my herd as well, but I have never heard of radiation stones, I check out Nighthawk Mineral's website as well, it is very interesting.



    I was wondering though because it wasn't mentioned in the article, does the radiation from the stones leave any trace in the milk?


    What you mean to ask is does the thorium and uranium end up in the animal. I believe it does.based on hair analysis in people.



    Also can it be used on pregnant animals?


    Most definitely. It gives them fertility if that is lacking.


    Why is the exposure to radiation from the stones good, but radiation from other sources can be bad?


    The stones are extremely low dose. That is the difference. That is the quick answer. Look on YouTube for long dissertations on how a little radiation can be very good even though we all know that a lot is harmful. Type in Jay Gutierrez at YouTube.

     
  7. KW Farms

    KW Farms Moderator Supporting Member

    Jun 21, 2008
    Wapato, WA
    That is very interesting.
     
  8. dvfreelancer

    dvfreelancer New Member

    192
    Aug 15, 2009
    I can guarantee this is snake oil. There is nothing radioactive you could put in the water that would give a 50 pound animal enough of a dose to have any effect. If they were selling something with that level of radioactivity, it would not be safe to handle without protective clothing and the US NEST team would be encasing their entire facility in concrete.

    Besides, for the most part, you can't drink radiation. Most of the naturally occurring heavy isotopes are not readily soluble in water. And they're alpha emitters and you can drink an alpha emitter like uranium all day without any ill effects.

    Otherwise your goats would be getting a sub-therapeutic "nose dose" from either some gamma or beta emitter in the rock, which would do absolutely nothing.

    One of the issues she raises is called the theory of radiation hormesis, which arose from animal studies done in the 50's and 60's. One scientific fact is the low dose groups in experiments consistently outlived the controls that received no radiation. But even those low doses are orders of magnitude higher than what you'd find naturally occurring in a rock.

    I realize CAE is a difficult and troubling issue for goat owners, but I promise you this isn't the solution. Unless you're willing to transport your goats to a uranium mine or steal an old x-ray machine, your animals will never get enough dose to effect anything and certainly not a virus.
     
  9. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    I don't mean to argue, but did you read the human testimonials on their site?
     
  10. lissablack

    lissablack New Member

    Nov 30, 2009
    I'm with dvfreelancer on this, I don't know much about radiation, but my conclusion is the same. I am very involved with alternative medicine and I think it is unfortunate that the biggest thing that should be said about it is "Let the buyer beware". Lots of things work some of the time, or partly, or help. But it is also an area where people can be taken very great advantage of.

    As for human testimonials, it is easy to make those up. (I didn't read them) I do accept for many things anecdotal evidence, but you can't know if it is just made up. You just can't. Plus people have a strong desire to see what they are told to see in these kinds of circumstances. The placebo effect is very real in humans.

    This looks like the kind of things that in the end hurts alternative medicine in a big way. I'm pretty surprised the Dairy Goat Journal published anything about it. I haven't got my copy yet.

    If anyone buys these things, please keep doing CAE prevention also.

    Jan
     
  11. dvfreelancer

    dvfreelancer New Member

    192
    Aug 15, 2009
    Arguing isn't going to change the facts. I don't care if an angel delivers the testimonials engraved on golden tablets in an apple orchard, you could dip those goats in a cesium pool and it's not going to have any effect on a viral infection. Look, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you could nuke 'em til they glowed and it's not going to cure CAE.

    My first job out of college was spending years at a government research lab out in the deserts of eastern Washington working on just those kinds of analysis. Digitizing the data from all the old animal dose studies conducted in the 50's and 60's, tissue culture modeling of radiation dosing compared to chemical insults and selective dosing by attaching radioisotopes to antigen specific antibodies, an early technique that actually is being used in cancer treatment these days.

    That was at Battelle Pacific Northwest Laboratories at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. Attached is a pic of the old B reactor where the core of the bomb dropped on Nagasaki was produced. Designed by Enrico Fermi himself. The other pic is either A or N reactor, but I think it's the old A plant.

    I'll say it plainly and in a public forum: It doesn't work. Now if that moon beam has any actual clinical data to back up her claim she can sue me for liable.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    this reminds me of the show I watched where they came up with this "miracle pill" for skin issues. They had trials and people gave these glowing testimonals after only using the product - which was a pill -- for a couple weeks. They helped to convince the people by creative adds and supposid doctors (actors in lab coats) and a couple weeks later they revealed to the people who so GLOWED about the miracle product that the product they took via pill was actually......nesquick coco powder!

    the people were shocked. We all know that hot chocolate powder can not cure your skin issues but the individuals wanted and believed it would so they "saw" changes in their skin.

    It goes to show you that if you want to see a change you will even if there is no reason for their to be change. The mind is a powerful thing.
     
  13. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    Yes the mind is a powerful thing, but goats are not subject to the emotions that humans are, therefore there is no placebo effect for goats. In the article, the lady who put the stones in her water discovered not only that the CAE antibody counts went down after retesting, but also found that her goats became shinier, healthier, did not need to be wormed as often, and seemed to be utilizing their food and minerals better, and she did not change anything in their management except for the stones. I'm not saying it works or that it doesn't work, but if it doesn't work how were her goats able to change in these ways?

    Those are cool pics btw dvfreelancer :)
     
  14. keren

    keren owned by goats

    Oct 26, 2008
    Australia
    possibly derailing this thread, but, why dont we have a CAE vaccine?
     
  15. goathappy

    goathappy New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Illinois
    I think because CAE is a retrovirus, i'm not sure though.
     
  16. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    well unless there was no other changes in diet or maintenance you cant say for sure that the rocks were what made the difference.

    Im always leery of anything this out there when it comes to cures and such
     
  17. dvfreelancer

    dvfreelancer New Member

    192
    Aug 15, 2009
    It is a retrovirus and those are darn peculiar critters. They can lie dormant for a long time and then, boink, there they are.

    I'd be willing to wager that CAE is far more prevalent than most people realize. There are different strains, not all of them are symptomatic. Animals can get a reading on the test, which means they have antibodies to the virus, and still not be considered positive. It depends on the titer.
     
  18. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    to add to that:

    we only test for the antibodies -- so they can have antibodies and not actually have the virus.
     
  19. WarPony

    WarPony New Member

    Jan 31, 2010
    Michigan

    Some of those things are subjective... like "shinier, healthier" etc. I don't know enough about CAE yet to know if antibody counts can decrease or increase over time I do know I did an experiment in high school with mice where we had people come in and look at a tank of white mice and rate them for health, coat quality, activity level and several other things. We then had them rate mice in a second tank that were receiving a new supplement designed to increase coat quality, health and brain function in lab mice. These mice always rated MUCH higher in all categories and comments like they seemed much shinier, more attentive and aware of their surroundings, more active, etc were common. The only thing was they were the same mice in the same tank, we had just moved their water bottle. There was no miracle supplement for lab mice, it was a psychology class experiment.

    For me to form an opinion i would need to know what their care routine was before and during treatment, what changes they made if any, and get actual CAE antibody counts and fecal results over the course of at least an entire year, possibly two years (the longer the better to rule out seasonal cycles).
     
  20. nighthawkminerals

    nighthawkminerals New Member

    2
    Jun 13, 2010
    Hi name is Jay Gutierrez, founder of Night Hawk Minerals. We are the ones that worked with the CAE and low dose radioactive stones. They work! If you need more information on this or help, just call me at 303-475-7202. We mostly work with people and cancer, but God seems to show us things all the time. God Bless.

    Jay