Too much Red Cell?

Discussion in 'Parasites' started by Da Goat Nanny, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. Da Goat Nanny

    Da Goat Nanny New Member

    6
    Sep 8, 2017
    Hi all!

    I'm staying on a farm in Hawaii and have been put in charge of all animal care- goats and chickens. I have no prior experience but have been reading all I can.

    Two does kidded last month and one got anemia. Her symptoms started one week ago and are tiredness, less of an appetite, and almost white gums/nose. No bottle jaw or diarrhea.

    The goat vet only comes to our area once a month and won't be here until the end of the month. She helped me over the phone and recommended a
    -5x dose of Safegaurd for 3 days
    -(3x dose of Safegaurd for 3 days for the non anemic momma)
    -1oz (30mL) per day of Red Cell for 2 weeks
    -Bring her leaves- especially legume plants daily
    -It's okay for her 2 kids to keep nursing (they are 4 weeks old)

    My question is- is that too much Red Cell? Everything I've read about Red Cell says 6cc per 100lbs. She is 50 lb. I really don't want to overdose her.
    What are symptoms of Red Cell overdose?

    Like a dum dum I gave her 30mL yesterday before fully researching everything and now I'm worried. But she's not any worse than yesterday so hopefully it's okay.

    Also, should I milk the other doe and try to feed her 2 kids? And I have some Nurti-drench; should I be giving it daily?

    Any other suggestions about how to get her well again would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading!
     
    capracreek likes this.
  2. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    I would do the 6cc per 100 lbs from now on. Is she able to nurse her kids?
     
    capracreek likes this.

  3. Da Goat Nanny

    Da Goat Nanny New Member

    6
    Sep 8, 2017
    Do you think I should hold off giving anymore red cell for a day or two? If I should only giver her 3cc then I gave her 10x that amount yesterday!

    She will allow the boy to nurse a little, but I'm not sure if the girl is getting any. They are both alert, lively and eating lots of greens.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  4. Suzanne_Tyler

    Suzanne_Tyler GreenTGoats

    Jul 19, 2014
    NC
    I would wait a day, and if she has no adverse reaction then start her on the 6cc per 100 lb dose.

    It might be hard to get the kids on the bottle, but you could try. I probably wouldn't though, as long as they're doing well.

    If she isn't down I wouldn't give any nutri drench.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  5. Da Goat Nanny

    Da Goat Nanny New Member

    6
    Sep 8, 2017
    Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely lower the red cell dose.

    I tried bottle feeding them this afternoon to see how they'd do. I got about a cup in the girl, but the boy wasn't getting it. I'll probably feed her a little bit when I can since I'm not sure if her moms nursing her much.

    As for the nutridrench, is there a reason why you wouldn't give any? Everyone I've spoken to has said it couldn't hurt. Although, I feel weird giving a full dose daily. And she doesn't seem to like it.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  6. Suzanne_Tyler

    Suzanne_Tyler GreenTGoats

    Jul 19, 2014
    NC
    It's more of a boost for goats that are really down, and it burns their throats.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  7. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    Definitely bottle feed if they are taking it. Means that they aren't getting enough from mom.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  8. Da Goat Nanny

    Da Goat Nanny New Member

    6
    Sep 8, 2017
    I have one more question for you guys. Do you think I should give Cydectin along with the Safegaurd? Or save Cydectin as a last resort? She still has a bit of an appetite, no diarrhea, and no bottle neck.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  9. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    All good advice.

    Cydectin, you may want to wait and see if the safeguard works. But yet, no fecal was done to know what is being treated. Any worm segments in the poo?
    You can have the vet take a sample when they arrive and check her then.

    I would wait a day, then start her at 6cc per 100lbs of red cell. The vet is way over dosing it, which can kill the goat.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  10. Ranger1

    Ranger1 Active Member

    849
    Sep 1, 2014
    LOL, I did the same thing earlier this year. I waited two or three days before beginning the real dose of 6 per 100. The doe never showed any signs of harm.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  11. Da Goat Nanny

    Da Goat Nanny New Member

    6
    Sep 8, 2017
    Whew, I was so worried I'd fatally overdosed her on the fist day of treatment! She seems fine though.

    So far she's not getting any worse, so I'll wait on the Cydectin. As for manually checking her poop for worms, I haven't seen her poop since the large dose of red cell! I really hope it didn't make her constipated.

    I know it takes awhile to produce more red blood cells, but how long until I see improvement after the Safegaurd? I've been feeding her 2+ buckets of her favorite greens daily and I'm wondering how long until she'll forage on her own again.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  12. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    If you haven't seen her poop, you can give her an enema and see if that helps her there. Not sure if a large dose of red cell would do that but if she is constipated, she needs relief, if you are not seeing any poo.
    If you can put her in an area that you can monitor her and see if she is pooping, then you will know for sure. It can be hard to determine in high grass or hay. If she is allowed to move around that may help get her going usually, unless she is constipated.

    It is hard to say on how long it will take to produce more red blood cells, and see improvement.
    I have seen them come back within a week , super bad cases can take weeks. It all depends on the goat. Just keep monitoring it and stop at borderline color.

    Take her out to the yard or grazing area. Allow her to nibble on plants. Of course make sure they are not toxic and are safe for her.

    Alfalfa hay would be really good for her.
    What kind of favorite greens are you feeding her?
    If it can be grazed by her, take her there.
    I find if a goat is penned up alone and we bring feed to them they are more depressed like an wonlt eat well. I usually will let the goat in my yard area and they go all over eating here and there. A little bit of nibbling is good. Each day she will get stronger and want to eat more. After a while of this, I will allow her out to the pasture area with the others, if they do not bash her, or be right there guarding her, so she can be out and about for a little while. It seems to pick up their spirits.
    Moving around is crucial and helps get the blood flowing so she can heal herself too.
     
    capracreek likes this.
  13. Da Goat Nanny

    Da Goat Nanny New Member

    6
    Sep 8, 2017
    Thanks, you guys have been a really big help! I'm pretty optimistic she'll make it.

    So far I've been keeping her in a pasture that's about half an acre and has an open sided tent. I leave the gate open for her to go to the main pasture, but she chooses to stay. Her babies stay with her most of the day and the 2 other adults and kids join her at night (or when it starts raining).

    She'll graze here and there and eats the greens I bring her. It's usually banana leaves, parsley, passion fruit leaves, a legume ground cover suggested by the vet, ginger leaves, wild basil. Since we are in Hawaii and have different plants then folks on the mainland I have a hard time figuring out whats best. I've also been giving her small amounts of grain and some sourdough starter for probiotics (we make bread).

    She's nursing the boy a little so I've been bottle feeding the girl with milk from our other doe.

    I was wonder about recovery time because I'll be going out of town later this week. Hopefully my fill in will keep up the work. I would let her into the chicken pasture with all the good greens I've been bringing her but I swear that's where she got parasites in the first place. Every time we let the goats in that pasture it seems like one of them gets sick soon after.
     
    toth boer goats and capracreek like this.
  14. capracreek

    capracreek Active Member

    281
    Apr 5, 2016
    Missouri
    I definitely check that pasture then and see if you can see what causes the problem. Sounds like you are doing a great job and getting a ton of education!!! Hope you are having some fun. There is nothing like goats to make you laugh.
     
    mariarose likes this.
  15. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    Oh boy, don't feed off the chicken pasture then.
    Chickens can cause issues for goats. :(

    Glad she is doing OK, recovery time I cannot say.
    If you are leaving soon, make sure what the person caring for her needs to do and not do. What she can and cannot eat. Make sure she gets excersise too.

    Wow, so many varieties of plants for sure.

    An alfalfa pellet slurry may help get some good stuff down her though. Just a little bit. Blend up 1/4 cup or less pellets to water. It goes a long way. Make it to where it will got through a big syringe or new turkey baster. Feed very slowly at the back corner of her mouth. If she coughs stop until she stops, then proceed. Feed her every few hours if possible in small amounts. Make a new batch each time.

    Can you get some oat hay or rye hay at all there?
    I find my goats who love alfalfa stop eating it when sick but will eat those hay types. At least it is something. See if that helps get her appetite going.

    Give her Fortified vit B complex SQ 6 cc's pr 100 lbs daily, it helps boost appetite. It has all the B vitamins and thiamine 100 mg and I would honestly get some probiotics in the tube for goats or cattle it has the right mix for her rumen health.
     
  16. goathiker

    goathiker I'm watching you

    Apr 13, 2011
    Oregon Coast Range
    It's hard for people to come around to the fact that everything must be boated in and you may not have access to anything we take for granted.
    I think that we need @Dayna to help here.

    Sent from my LGL34C using Goat Forum mobile app
     
    mariarose likes this.
  17. lottsagoats1

    lottsagoats1 Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2014
    Middle Maine
    Search online for FAMACHA, checking gums and nose are not accurate ways to check for anemia, the membranes of the eyes are.

    Here is a good site to read through. It tells about worming, worms and FAMACHA. Lots of good info for you to scan through!!!!

    http://www.jackmauldin.com/FAMACHA_Postels.pdf
     
  18. Survey0r

    Survey0r Member

    148
    Nov 25, 2014
    Georgia
    SafeGuard has been proven to be ineffective in treating barber pole worms in many areas. By ineffective it kills less than a predetermined amount of the worms (50-60% I believe). So you may get some initial benefit from the safeguard, but will not last as long as other more effective wormers.
    I have started using multiple wormers at the same time, Valbazin, Cydectin, and, or, Ivomectin.
    Pay special attention to the does with kids, the kids pull them down and the worms will kill them quickly. If they are anemic it takes longer to build them up. Add red cell or injectable iron and B complex and keep a close eye on them. I also like to give a dose of probios day after worming.
     
  19. Dayna

    Dayna Well-Known Member

    Aug 16, 2012
    Keaau Hawaii
    Are you still on the farm?