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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm doing research to possibly using Lutalyse to bring does into heat next year, as they have no visible heat signs whatsoever. To breed we have had to just let the buck and doe run together for a month(to catch at least one cycle) and the closest thing we have for a due date is sometime between January 27(145 days from earliest breeding date) and March 20(155 days from latest breeding date) on our does. As you can probably guess this gets tedious when the only thing you have to go by for "is she going to kid this week" is udder fill and does she have her ligaments(last year one doe had nothing for a week and a half before kidding). This becomes a major problem for me when I am trying to do CAE prevention by pulling kids at birth and have young does most likely carrying multiples who are due to kid in the middle of winter. I don't want to lose kids.
I have been looking through different ways to bring does into heat or mark breeding times. Have thought about a marking harness, but I have had bucks mount a doe multiple times and not get anything accomplished (both were fertile, but the buck just couldn't figure it out)
I've thought about CIDR inserts, but they are kind of expensive and I am more comfortable using an injection than an insert for the does.
I know Lutalyse can be used to induce standing heat, synchronize does, induce labor and abort. And it is given IM.
But, can it be used when you have no idea when a doe is cycling?
What are the directions? Like one shot and a few days later they are in heat or do you repeat the dose after so many days?
Sorry about all the questions, but I think this might be a possible solution for us.
 

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Lutalyse isn't really any better than any other technique to get an accurate date. For example, it doesn't work unless they are already cycling. There is really no way to cheat without doing some extra work of some kind or another. One way without any drugs is to have the buck on the other side of an electrified, very strong fence. If a doe is hanging out at the fence and flagging etc., put her in with the buck. Usually the results of doing that are pretty obvious. If your buck is tame you can lead him though the herd a couple of time a day and "tease" for heats. Some people use a marking harness on the buck. I've heard good and bad stories about that. You can use the "buck effect" by keeping any buck far away from your does and then suddenly introducing him during prime breeding season. This often brings many of them in at once. Not very precise though as some might be late or get missed the first time. If you *have to* run your buck with your does, the CIDRs are your best bet. Why? Because when a CIDR is *in* they are *not* in heat. You know they didn't get bred on those days. There are several protocols for using the CIDRs, but basically you can stagger pulling them to encourage the date you want. The buck pen with the stout fence in common with no drugs is probably your best bet.
 

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I have used Lutalyse and I did 1 shot and then 14 days later they came into heat. I also used the buck to behavior test daily. I have done it a few times and it has always ended up being around the 14 day mark. There are others who do it a little differently though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Lutalyse isn't really any better than any other technique to get an accurate date. For example, it doesn't work unless they are already cycling. There is really no way to cheat without doing some extra work of some kind or another. One way without any drugs is to have the buck on the other side of an electrified, very strong fence. If a doe is hanging out at the fence and flagging etc., put her in with the buck. Usually the results of doing that are pretty obvious. If your buck is tame you can lead him though the herd a couple of time a day and "tease" for heats. Some people use a marking harness on the buck. I've heard good and bad stories about that. You can use the "buck effect" by keeping any buck far away from your does and then suddenly introducing him during prime breeding season. This often brings many of them in at once. Not very precise though as some might be late or get missed the first time. If you *have to* run your buck with your does, the CIDRs are your best bet. Why? Because when a CIDR is *in* they are *not* in heat. You know they didn't get bred on those days. There are several protocols for using the CIDRs, but basically you can stagger pulling them to encourage the date you want. The buck pen with the stout fence in common with no drugs is probably your best bet.
The does do cycle. As they are all currently bred we just don't know when.
The bucks do live on the other side of a fence from the girls and they never flag, never bleat, they never act like they are in heat. Like I said the only reason we know they cycle is that they get pregnant.
We don't have to run the bucks with the does normally. Only to breed.
We have tried everything. We thought they weren't in visible heat and throwing strong signs because they were copper or selenium deficient, tried bolusing and have been giving BoSe for the past several years. Nothing.
I am not looking to cheat. I am looking to be able to control my breeding program more than I currently can because we have lost kids in the past because we were not there to assist(back when we had Boer goats). It is impossible for us to go out every hour or two during the day and night to check if does are in labor for two months until everyone kids.
 

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If you have a small place that you can put the doe and buck, you can daily behavior test them for a cycle. At some point, the buck will pick up on the heat. At little more labor intensive but you will know the date.
 

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From the situation you describe, I don't know how Lutalyse is going to make much difference. You still won't know if they got bred or not. If you can't tell when they are in heat, you can't tell when they are in heat on a Lutalyse heat either. It looks exactly the same. :) I suppose you could make things "more likely" for a given date, but you have to control when the buck is in with the doe. Everybody has these same problems. It takes some extra effort to get an exact date. As you have found out, it's worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
From the situation you describe, I don't know how Lutalyse is going to make much difference. You still won't know if they got bred or not. If you can't tell when they are in heat, you can't tell when they are in heat on a Lutalyse heat either. It looks exactly the same. :) I suppose you could make things "more likely" for a given date, but you have to control when the buck is in with the doe. Everybody has these same problems. It takes some extra effort to get an exact date. As you have found out, it's worth it.
That's what I am looking for, simply a more likely date. The bucks and does live completely seperagly until we decide to breed them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
And I'm trying to tell you, you still won't know for sure just because you used lutalyse. How many does do you have?
Okay, that's what I didn't understand. I wasn't sure if I had put that the bucks and does do not run together constantly and didn't know if the heats could be timed so many days after you give the injection. I'm sorry if I sounded pushy, I was just making sure I clarified and understood.

Currently I have 4 bred to kid in 2014 and plan to have 10 or more to breed for 2015 kids.
 

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Okay, that's what I didn't understand. I wasn't sure if I had put that the bucks and does do not run together constantly and didn't know if the heats could be timed so many days after you give the injection. I'm sorry if I sounded pushy, I was just making sure I clarified and understood. Currently I have 4 bred to kid in 2014 and plan to have 10 or more to breed for 2015 kids.
Trust me. I feel your pain. Managing your does to have an exact breeding date is not easy. You have to figure out what works best for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Trust me. I feel your pain. Managing your does to have an exact breeding date is not easy. You have to figure out what works best for you.
Do you think CIDRs would work better?
Are they better to use to get a more exact date or do they have the same problems as lute?
 

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CIDR's are sometimes are not 100% effective, some does don't come in heat after using them, they just stay on their normal cycles, but they are used with pretty good results. Most people like to use PG600, or Cystorelin with the CIDR's because they don't work as great without one or the other. Normally with a CIDR and a hormone of choice, they will be in heat 24 hours after the implant is removed.

I used lute on 5 does this year, all were in heat 36 hours after the shot. Discharge, flagging, more vocal, mounting other does, rubbing on other does, pretty much a raging heat. Only one doe came back in 6 days later and was rebred, all are settled.
 

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I've usually had similar results as LittleBits. After pulling the CIDRs, they should be in 24 hours later. With Lute, mine come in about 60 -72 hours after the shot. Not sure why my goats are different, but that is consistent at my farm. Either way, I had does not do what they are supposed to and if I wasn't watching I wouldn't know for sure if a doe got covered.

SugarBushFarms, next year maybe you could do like three does at a time. Give three a lute shot and kick them in with the buck. When they are done, do three more, etc. Watch them for signs of breeding. Watch them close 18-20 days after they are "out". The more work you are willing to do, the more accurate you will be. For example, if you can lead the buck to the does or vice versa a couple times a day, you should be able to know when they come in. I'm not sure why the "in common fence" thing isn't working. Your does must need the more physical contact to be coming in. What time of year did you put the buck in this year?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
What time of year did you put the buck in this year?
We put one doe in with him around the first of September(I'd have to look up the exact date and don't have the book with me) and the rest went in with a different buck at the same time. They were pulled out in October. Then thirty days after we pulled them all out of the pens and preg. checked via BioPRYN and got all positives.
 

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To understand when you can use Lute, you need to understand how it works.

Lutalyse is a prostaglandin which will regress (break down) the corpus luteum and signal the doe to come into heat and then ovulate. Basically it starts the hormone cascade. For the rest of the post (for ease of typing) I am going to call the corpus luteum the CL. It has nothing to do with CL abscesses - they just share the same abbreviation.

For Lute to work, the doe needs to have an active CL. This means that for about 60-70% of her cycle it will work fine and she will be in heat in 48-72 hours later. The rest of the time it will not work because she does not have an active CL. If your doe was just recently in heat (whether you saw it or not) Lute will not work on her or if she is due to come into heat on her own in a few days - her body will have already lysed the CL so Lute will also not work.

If you want to sync your entire herd with Lute, the easiest protocol to use is hit everyone with Lute on day 1 (don't breed them) and about 2/3 of your herd will be in heat. Then hit everyone with lute again 10 days later and everyone should be in heat together or within a few hours of each other. You could then let the buck run the pen for a day or two and you should have everyone covered within a few day period.

As a side note, the CL is what also maintains the progesterone for the pregnancy which is why using Lute to lyse the CL will cause a doe to either kid or abort (depending on when you give it to her).

Hope that helps!
 

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I would only lute a doe as a last ditch effort. Are your bucks and does kept separate? You can walk a buck through the doe pen on a leash once a day and he can tell you who is in heat and who isn't. I have a hard time imagining all of your does don't show any heat signs. :scratch: I have sixty or so adult does and can tell pretty easily when they're in heat. Every doe I have shows heat signs to some degree. I do all leash breedings and it's very effective. It does take a little time every day during breeding season, but it's worth it when the kids arrive right on schedule.
 

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What I do is put the CIDR in for one week, pull, give a shot of lutalyse the same day and they come into heat that same week. It's worked both times I have done it and it was what was recommended by my vet. At the very least, it gives you a week window instead of a month.
 

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I feel your pain. I have a very vocal boer buck in a fenced pen and the girls all walk around his pen. I have had to learn each girl's evidence of cycling. I grain them all and when they are lined up with heads down, tails up, i do a walk behind and look for signs. I also know that if they are in heat, my buck is very very vocal. Then I pay a little closer attention. This year, i got all 8 bread with an very quick appointment with the buck. Of course, he does not get all the fun, becuase I have Nubians and Boers.

I will add that the one time when i did use Lute, I had my nubian buck get in with three young does and i did not want them bred (too young), so my vet had me use the Lute to abort if in fact they were bred.
 
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