What would you guys do?

Discussion in 'Goat Frenzy' started by sparks879, Dec 16, 2007.

  1. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    I have a question for you all pertaining another breeder. I have seen first hand this persons goats and have seen people talking great things about this persons animals. However i know things about them that a lot of people don't know. Things like the buck they are using has a severly undershot jaw, as does his littermate brother and his dam. I feel like i should tell the people that are thinking about buying kids about this, as the breeder isn't telling them. but at the same time i am friends with this person and i don't want to be the one to be hated for saying these things even though they are truthful.
    So im asking if you were in this situation what would you do??? I just don't want someone to pay a lot of money for a kid for this breeding and then end up with a kid that has a severly undershot jaw. I mean i know theres a chance that he won't throw it. But personally if this had been my buck i wouldn't of taken the chance he would of ended up on the table. This is not something i feel should be passed around. I will never buy an animal out of this buck knowing that he has this probalem and it could possibly show up down the road, even if not his kids in his grand kids or even more generations down the line. Especially sinse a lot of the people i see that are wanting this bucks kids, are young kids who are jst starting out their show herd.

    thanks in advance
  2. creaturesall

    creaturesall Member

    Oct 26, 2007
    Langdon, AB Canada
    For what it's worth, in my opinion, the only person you should speak to is the breeder.

  3. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    yea i spoke to them about it, they just shrugged their shoulders and said the pedigree was too good to go to waste. But in my opinion i feel they are now basically breeding for this. They said that when they went to pick up the buck kid they saw the dam and almost didn;t because of her undershot jaw. But because of the dam having one and both her buck kids having one that shows me that that line is throwing it and therefore the breeder is technically breeding for that trait. Whether they relalize it or not.
    I don't think i would be able to live with myself asking seven or right hundred dollars from a kid that i know is out of a buck with such a bad confirmation trait. And its not just confirmation. Undershot jaws make it difficult for the animal to eat. Why would you want to take the chance of them reproducing this?
  4. trob1

    trob1 New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Middle TN
    Well if they have done their homework on what to look for in a goat and they ask to see the dam and sire then they would see the problems too and not buy them unless it doenst bother them. As a breeder you could damage your reputation bad mouthing another breeder and as their friend to me it wouldnt be worth damaging the friendship. Sometimes things are better left alone.
  5. liz

    liz Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Shelocta PA
    I'll have to agree with both of you on this matter, even though its wrong IMO to sell a kid knowing that there is the possibilitie of a defect. Do you really want to jeopardize your reputation as well as the friendship you have with this breeder?

    If you feel the need to help those who don't have the knowledge of the basics on looking for a "show" goat, maybe offer to educate your local 4H club...without mentioning names...as most of these kids know the basics of caring for an animal just not what to look for when purchasing for a "project"
  6. enjoytheride

    enjoytheride New Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    Humboldt Co Ca
    Having been sold dangerous and/or unhealthy animals I would say that the breeder is irresponsible and should have the reputation she will certainly earn. It is not possible to discover everything about an offspring- it might not be apparent just by looking or asking. I would probably not go into a pen to check someone else's buck's teeth. And if purchased long distance, you are certainly at the seller's mercy.
    But if I knew someone who was considering a kid from this line, I would mention that i had heard that undershot jaws ran in the family or that I had seen offspring with this problem. Then you have done what you can- if they choose to ignore it..........
    I would be careful with making remarks in public to unknown people though- this will sound like sour grapes even if true. You need to be careful about any remarks.

    I have to mention too the good of the breed- I can think of two cases- Impressive bred Quarter horses (kudo to the AQHA for coming to grips with this<) and a very famous Arab stallion who showed his whole career with and sanded and reshaped club foot, spreading it thoughout the breed. Someone told about this when I ask why so many of this woman's horses had club feet- no one knew this til the horse retired and they let his foot go back to it's natural shape.
  7. Sweet Gum Minis

    Sweet Gum Minis New Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    Easley, SC
    Boy that's a tough one. On one hand you don't want to lose a friend and you have confronted her about it. I don't know what I'd suggest you do. I wouldn't bad mouth the breeder though, but if you have another friend interested in their kids you might mention it to them. That's a tricky one.
  8. sixshooterfarm

    sixshooterfarm New Member

    Oct 18, 2007
    Valley Springs, Ca
    I think the only thing you can do here is not say anything unless some one ask or is looking at the kids. Like if they ask you what you thought, I would just say, I know him and his dam have undershot jaws and I dont want that in my herd. SOmething simple and that cannot be taken the wrong way.....I have experience with a breeder who would breed teat problems, fish teats or double teated you know, well she would take the animal to the vet an have the extra teat cut off.....It is hard to do, and no matter what you do people talk bad, they always do and wlays will. It is so hard to do, I mean I have had people say some stupid things about me, 99.9% of them where majorly untrue, and the other thing was when I was like 12 just getting started in the goats some of my goats where wormy...it alwasy happens, and people were telling other people that I had MAJOR problems with my herd...lol people like to blow things out of propertion, its human nature. You do what feels right to you. Me honeslty I would mention something IF ASKED about that paticular goat, and the breeder cant get mad at you because it is the truth and if she gets mad at you for that then she is not a freind at all!
  9. fcnubian

    fcnubian New Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    Don't bad mouth them, in the future it'll come back to bite ya.

    If some one is interested in their goats, ask them if they'd like some tips. If yes, show a side view of a goat that doesn't have a messed up jaw. Also point out that they should look at both parents of the kid they want to buy. ect ec.t :D
  10. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    yes a very tough one. Like you guys all said i don't want to lose my reputation as a breeder, i pride myself in knowing that i am always honest and i have had people come back to me before because of it. But at the same time i see these young kids talking about getting an animal out of this breeding, the picture this person has posted on thei website the buck looks nice but his face is turned away from the camera. I feel the breeder is purposly trying to hide it. I guess for now i will just keep my mouth shut. the problem is the people most likely are not going to ask me about it becasue they don't know who i am talking about or what breeder im refering to.
    thanks a bunch guys
  11. goatnutty

    goatnutty Active Member

    Oct 9, 2007
    South East,IN
    Talk to the breeder but don't make them angry!It will hurt you more in the long run.If someone really wants to have a good goat they should look at the parents.Is the woman taking deposites?If so, does she give them the option to not take them if they see the defect in the kid?
  12. nancy d

    nancy d Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 5, 2007
    near Seattle
    Beth you just keep on keepin on with the honsesty. You can answer any questions someone would have with pointing out good traits & avoiding bad ones without mentioning names during a conversation if asked.
    Since you have spoken to this breeder l would leave it there and never bring it up again. It is their problem.
  13. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    thanks nancy, I know she is taking deposits on kids, i don;t know if she refunds or not if the new owner isn;t happy.
  14. mystic's_mom

    mystic's_mom Guest

    Oct 5, 2007
    Aww, that is sad when breeders just breed an animal just because he has good bloodlines; those lines mean NOTHING when the animal in question has conformation faults that could be passed on. Conformation, to me, comes first; and even if the animal has great bloodlines, if he or she doesn't match up, then, especially in the sire's case, he will not be used for breeding.

    If I were you, I just wouldn't recommend this breeder, regardless of her being a friend, to other people looking for a stud for their goats.
  15. sparks879

    sparks879 New Member

    thats what im going to do. I mean i know not a single goat is perfect, the buck im using this year toes out a bit but none of my does do so im hoping it won;t happen in the kids, but to me that seems like a minor fault compaired to an undershot jaw.
    It just saddens me to know that this person hasn;t said anything to any buyers and i see these people ranting and raving about how nice the animals in this herd is. Im afraid they're going to end up with something that isn't worth the price they are paying and something they won't be happy with. But i Know i have had to live and learn from my mistakes. And i just have learned over the years to check out the animals you are buying stock out of as well as the breeders. Even if you can;t see the parents in person find brothers sisters aunts uncles and whatever else you can find pictures of.