white muscle disease

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by jschies, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. jschies

    jschies Active Member

    587
    Aug 14, 2014
    We lost a goat last week with no clue of what was wrong. A goat died last year with similar symptoms--just a little lethargic, not moving around as usual. Now I have another goat walking slowly to the barn at feeding time and lying around more than normal. Last night I gave her Cydectin, B complex, thiamine, and Mu-Se. Tonight, she jogged into the barn at supper time. I think that this must be white muscle disease. Does anyone know how soon I can and should give her another dose of Mu-Se?? I gave her thiamine, Red Cell, and B12 tonight.
     
  2. Goats Rock

    Goats Rock Member

    Jun 20, 2011
    NE Ohio
    Do you have injectable Vitamin AD and E? Give a dose of that too. PBS Livestock sells it. I'm sure other places do too.
     
    mariarose likes this.

  3. jschies

    jschies Active Member

    587
    Aug 14, 2014
    Thanks! I forgot that I have AD and E gel. I gave that this morning. I would really like to know how often you can inject selenium...does anyone know?
     
  4. ksalvagno

    ksalvagno Moderator

    It really depends. But you have to be careful.
     
    mariarose likes this.
  5. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    I've not read of anyone giving Bo-Se more often than monthly, and Mu-Se is stronger, I believe? So less often than that even?

    Myself, I've only given 1 injection, then switched to an oral supplement. And I live in a deficient area with antagonists.

    May I ask what brand of loose mineral mix you use? Some are pretty low in Selenium, or are high in oxides. Some mineral mixes are better than others in this regard, and if we know what you use, perhaps we can offer suggestions. Or at least eliminate the mineral mix from the list of suspects.

    If you don't offer loose minerals, you really should. We can help you sort out your choices.
     
  6. Jessica84

    Jessica84 Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    California
    That's a great idea mariarose! From my understanding the gel is quite a bit safer. I goat friend I have her goat got ahold of a tube and ate the whole thing and still lives to tell about it......no way would I give a whole tube even if that goat did live but still lol
    From my understanding MU-SE is stronger per cc, so if it was broken down to a MUCH smaller dose then it would come out to the same as a higher normal dose of bose. There is a thread called where is the BOSE and it's broken down to what it should be.
    But if this was me I would give the gel instead of the MUSE. I would have done the first shot but now that she is "better" i would think the gel would more or less maintain her.
    There is a very very fine line between enough selenium and too much so that's why I would go with the gel
     
    mariarose likes this.
  7. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    My selenium deficiency problem is pretty severe (between an actual deficiency AND antagonistic deficiencies), and I'm not trying to make light of what the OP is going through. I'm so sorry they lost a goat just last week.

    I feel it would be pretty difficult for me to have a selenium toxicity, but I'm still really cautious.

    I start out with the very best loose minerals I can find. Then I also set out free choice kelp. Then I also mix fresh ground flaxseed in to the kelp. When I see someone showing a wry tail, I bring them onto the milk stand for a few days (if they are not being milked and coming on the milk stand anyway!) and give them a coffee scoop of ground flaxseed each day. If I see stronger or more persistent signs, I'll pull out the gel. A Bo-Se injection (my vet will NOT give me Mu-Se) is my last resort. I'll give it, but then it is right back to the orals.

    But, and this is a strong but, the base of this is really good minerals. Which is why I asked about them.

    I use Co-op brand Supreme Goat Minerals when I can get them. I depend on Cargill's Right Now Onyx because I can ALWAYS get them. I can get Manna Pro, but am really underwhelmed by them. There are lots more options and people swear by those options. Just telling my POV.

    Also, minerals don't work in a vacuum. @jschies Do you know if you have any other mineral issues going on? If you do, then perhaps a multi gel, like Replamin Plus gel, would be a good option for you.

    Again, I'm so very sorry about your loss. I battled problems for a long time in the dark before I was able to start putting things together.
     
  8. jschies

    jschies Active Member

    587
    Aug 14, 2014
    We do have loose minerals available: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/nutrebeef-all-purpose-mineral?cm_vc=-10005
    I don't know how good it is.
    I do have trouble with copper and selenium deficiency. I do give copper boluses and Bo-Se shots occasionally. I am a little scared to give it (selenium). I have Mu-Se now because I ran out when everyone was backordered. I gave her .25 cc. I think she weighs around 50 pounds. I love the Cargill Onyx but we have a hard time getting it, so we switched. We are on well water that smells like Yellowstone National Park!!
    What I don't know is if she'll be okay now, or if I will have to give selenium again in a few days, or a week, or a month....
     
  9. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    OMGosh.

    I recommend you order either some Selenium gel, or the Replamin Plus gel. (I would go with the Replamin if you can)

    I'll get back with you.
     
  10. Jessica84

    Jessica84 Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    California
    I didn't think you were making light of what the OP is going threw. And you are right deficiency can be just as heartbreaking as over doing it. I learned that this year but I'm also still dipping into selenium so I'm still a total chicken about it.
    But there was a study I read, gosh I can't even remember where it was, if it was on here or on one of my google sprees. Anyways they had 3 groups of sheep. One got no selenium added, the other the lambs and ewes got injection selenium (Bose) and the third got added selenium free choice (I'm going to assume in a salt maybe??) I can not even attempt to recall numbers here but the group that got nothing the lambs grew at X rate, injected gained way better and free choice did extremely better then both groups.
    I know we are talking about actual deficiencies but it's still a option for added selenium that is fairly safe.
    When we were having trouble getting BOSE goathiker mentioned back In the day she had all different salt blocks out and that got a light turned on in my head so I bought some loose selenium salt and put out. Everyone sucked it down for a week or so but have backed off. Someone mentioned salt toxicity but I read as long as the salt is close to their water source they will be fine so that's what I did and everyone here is fine.
    This is something new I am doing so can't swear by it just yet and I'm not sure if I'm going to give bose before they kid or not just yet. But it's still another and fairly safe way to give added selenium too
     
    mariarose likes this.
  11. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    Yeah, I thought so. Do you have a bag? Look at the guaranteed analysis.

    I wrote to TSC on their website and asked why the guaranteed analysis and ingredients were not listed on the details. They did send me an attachment of the tag, but refused to post the info on the detail AND did not post my question/request. So you can't even see that someone wanted it.

    I don't know how to post here what they sent me.

    It is really bad and I'm the opposite of shocked that you are having trouble.

    Your herd will NOT be ok unless you give them some help. And that help needs to be constant because of your water. And you can't give shots constantly

    Still working on helping you.
     
  12. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    Jessica, I believe in free choice everything. I used to give free choice ground flax seed, but could not afford to keep that up. That is why it is now mixed in a 5-1 ratio Kelp-ground flaxseed.

    I can't keep a salt out free choice, because then they don't go to my free choice minerals.

    But yeah, free choice, ftw!
     
  13. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    I am still unable to figure out how to share here what TSC sent me. I'm a computer dummy.

    But I will share the copper and selenium levels on the tag. And yes, it is for the very bag you linked to.

    Copper minimum 150ppm
    Selenium minimum 9ppm

    Those 2 levels should be closer to 1500 ppm and 20 ppm, respectively. And I would consider those levels low.

    Here is a link to my favorite, for comparison.

    http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73

    Please do consider using at least the gels while you find a better mineral.
     
  14. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    You seen good results/response.
    I wouldn't give the 2nd dose.
    You can make the goat toxic, just watch for a while, selenium injections stay in the system for quit a while.
    But keep the minerals free choice near.
     
    mariarose likes this.
  15. jschies

    jschies Active Member

    587
    Aug 14, 2014
    Okay. I guess we really need to find a good constant source for Onyx. I will just watch her and continue with vit. E and B supplements until she is completely well. I was sure happy to see her jog last night, but I would rather see her run to the barn like the others.
     
  16. mariarose

    mariarose Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
    SouthCentralKY, USA
    Please give her selenium in a gel. She won't get well without it. Vitamin E helps the selenium, but not if there is no selenium. I repeat, she is not going to get better, only worse, without the minerals. Please at the very least get her Selenium. You'd do better to get the Replamin Plus, but at least get the Selenium gel.

    Please.
     
  17. jschies

    jschies Active Member

    587
    Aug 14, 2014
    Pam, thanks. That article has good information. The goat did not come in as fast tonight. But luckily I finally caught her going to the bathroom and ran a fecal. She is full of worms also. I think that is why she was slower tonight. I wormed her two nights ago since I couldn't really tell what the problem was. Hopefully she will feel better tomorrow. I will continue vitamin e, b complex, probiotics, Red Cell and thiamine.
     
  18. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    You are welcome.

    Glad you were able to get a fecal. And she has been treated. Be sure to give the wormer again 10 days later, 3x, 10 days apart.

    If you have a good relationship with your vet maybe they can advise you on what you should do for her and if they feel selenium is needed further.
     
    mariarose likes this.