Whoops, too much clover = diarrhea!!!

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by cyanne, Apr 11, 2010.

  1. cyanne

    cyanne Senior Member

    So, yesterday we were doing some yard work and I pulled up a bunch of clover from around the house (I don't use any pesticides or yard chemicals of any kind). I threw some in with my Nigi's, thinking I would give them a little treat as their pasture has been pretty much stripped of greenery. Well, I didn't think I gave them *that* much, but almost all of them ended up with clumpy log poos and one doe in particular, Ruby, completely blew out with the scours overnight. I mean she must have pooed out her own weight in mess, was all covered in it and just looks miserable.

    Their pasture looked like a war zone with soft poos and puddles of diarrhea everywhere...yuck! Spent half the day raking it and shoveling it all clean again.

    So, everybody got probiotics sprinkled on their feed, the two with the worst of it got a direct dose of probiotics drenched into them to make sure they got enough and Ruby got drenched with about 16 oz of water mixed with electrolytes then put in a pen by herself with nothing but dry hay and fresh water with Bounce Back (it is a powder with electrolytes and dextrose in it).

    Since then I have not seen her poo anymore, she has pretty much just stood there in the same spot all day with her forehead pressed up against the hay rack, shifting back and forth on her feet like she is uncomfortable. She did attack the water bucket and drank alot so that is good, but I was wondering if there is anything else I should do?

    Her temp was normal at 101.5. Her belly is not blown up more than normal or uneven so I don't think it is bloat.

    I do have Scour Halt on hand but was unsure about using that on an adult doe...could pick up some Pepto if that would help, though she does not seem to be pooing anymore, just standing around looking really miserable. I also have B vitamin I could give but I was wondering if that would be bad to give her in case it is coccidia (I thought I read somewhere that coccidia feeds on B vits??).

    I did gather a poo sample in case I need to take it for testing, but since it happened to them all at once right after I gave them the weeds, I think the culprit is pretty obvious here (ME!).
     
  2. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
    Pepto wouldnt hurt her at all - it will make her feel more comfortable too.

    you will know more in the morning if the situation is remedied or if its still going on if the weeds were really the issue or not
     

  3. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    I agree with Stacey.... it is wait and see now...also ...you can feed a low quality hay or oat hay/straw type hay.... it may help as well...you don't need to give much....... I hope.. it will be back to normal by tomorrow....keep us updated.. :hug:
     
  4. cyanne

    cyanne Senior Member

    I just went out to check on her again, she is still pooing watery poos, no blood or mucous but VERY runny. I took her out of her pen and cleaned her up so I could milk her...not much milk at all, but then she has not really been eating all day and feels terrible so I am not surprised. Since I am not sure what is wrong I milked her last and threw out the milk.

    I gave her 30CC of pepto and took her temp again, a little higher than earlier, but still well within normal range at 102.5.

    My hubby asked about bloat, wanted to check with you guys to see if bloat can happen without them grinding their teeth or biting at their sides or anything like that? She is always really wide in the belly, looks like a blimp all the time though she is not overweight. I felt her sides and they feel like a balloon full of air, but both sides are pretty much even. My understanding with bloat was that the left side where the rumen is would be bigger. On her they are about the same, though the side where her rumen is is slightly higher up.

    I have a bottle of bloat release that I keep on hand for emergencies...should I go ahead and give it to her, or will it do more harm than good if she is not really bloating?

    Today she did not really eat at all, all she has access to is fresh water and plain coastal bermuda hay. She does not seem to want to lie down and has been on her feet every time I have checked on her, she kind of stands really still and shifts her weight a bit back and forth from time to time.

    So mad at myself for giving them that stuff :GAAH:

    ...and now worried about how in the heck I am going to transition them to having free-choice browse once the rest of the fence is in place. Right now they have a pen that is about 60ft by 120 ft...it has some greenery but they don't seem to eat what's in the areas that are left. So, for now they get all their food in the form of hay and grain, but when the fence is finished they will have access to 3-5 acres of heavily wooded land with tons of greens. Now wondering how in the heck I am supposed to let them loose out there without killing them from too much, too fast! :shrug:
     
  5. RunAround

    RunAround New Member

    Feb 17, 2008
    Massachusetts
    I wouldn't give her any grain. (Not sure if you are or not so just figured I would say it.)

    I'd give lots of water with electrolytes(preferably one with dextrose in it). She is going to be loosing electrolytes with the runs for that long, so make sure you are replacing them.
    You can try some baking soda or tums to help her tummy. I'm not sure about the bloat release, i've never used it but do have a bottle on hand myself in case lol
     
  6. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    What color is the poo?

    You say she is thin...It may be cocci or worms..... getting a fecal done... will let you know what you are dealing with.... quickly :hug:

    The bloatiness may be associated with both ..... you are correct in saying ..that bad bloat extends up out above the left side around the ribs....



    give baking soda for the little bloating...probiotics may help calm the tummy as well... to get the tummy back on track...
     
  7. cyanne

    cyanne Senior Member

    No, she is not at all thin, she is a very healthy weight (her belly just tends to be much wider than the rest of her body) and her eyelids are nice and pink so I doubt it is worms.

    It would have to be one heck of a coincidence as all of the ones who had the clover ended up with soft, clumpy poos at the same time immediately after I fed it to them. Ruby and one other doe both got full diarrhea but the other doe was not hit as hard as she was and bounced right back with just the probiotic.

    I called my vet about the fecal...she wants $25 to test it if I bring it in....grrrr...I am sooo buying my own equipment and starting to do my own. So sick of that vet charging so much for every single little thing. I mean, my old vet for my dogs would charge about $19 for a fecal but that was if I brought the dog in and they had to go in and get the poo themselves. How can it be so much when I am bringing the sample in, already collected in a baggy? Highway robbery.

    She was a little better today, all the poo on her rump had dried and I did not see any new stuff so I washed it all off and gave her a little more pepto before putting her back in her pen with just the hay and water with electrolytes and dextrose. I also bought some kaolin pectin stuff that is supposed to help with diarrhea so I am going to give her a little of that. If it does not stop soon I will have to swallow my pride and pay the $25 to have them test some poo.
     
  8. Plumbago

    Plumbago New Member

    59
    Jan 21, 2008
    Difinitely sounds diet related, experienced this myself and always corrected by feeding roughage --- I would stop the grain and all green feed and for two days feed only a oaten or a meadow hay with no greenery in the hay until the stools return to normal.
     
  9. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Everyone's right. Stop her grain altogether and keep on the pepto until she gets over this hump. Be extra vigilant on hoof trimming as well and you may want to soak her hooves in Epsom salts for 5-10 minutes a day to try to reduce some swelling and prevent or lessen any founder that might try to start on her.

    The fecal costs $25 because you are paying an experienced person to do it who has training and knows what they are looking at. Also the fecal solution costs a fair amount of money, especially if this clinic goes through it quickly . .. then there's the cost of slides, microscope repairs, etc. Cheaper by far to do it on your own (and much more fun! :D). . . but if you're not confident in ID-ing the parasites $25 really isn't too bad especially if you can talk them into doing it with you and showing you what you're looking at. The clinic where I work charges $30 I think, but like you said, that's after they go in and get it on their own, lol ;). I think if you got a fecal done it wouldn't show much. I'm pretty sure this diarrhea is due to her getting into all that clover. Her body just needs time and TLC to get over the hump.

    The one thing that they could do with the fecal is what's called a "gram's stain" for bacteria. If she has botulism or some other type of bacteria that's causing or enhancing her diarrhea they would be able to find out what it is and treat it. That's something you could ask about . . . it will probably be more expensive than just a fecal though. :(
     
  10. cyanne

    cyanne Senior Member

    Update, she is back to pellets as of this morning! I knew she looked better yesterday, as she was actually lying down and chewing her cud rather than standing there looking all miserable all day. Went to check this morning and there was a nice pile of regular pellets in there. Yay!

    Her appetite has improved as well, as she was munching lots of hay this morning, though she did not go after the grain like she normally would when I fed the rest. But, I did not want her eating that just yet anyway, so I am glad that even after I let her out she went for the hay instead of trying to steal grain from the others.
     
  11. StaceyRosado

    StaceyRosado Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Oct 4, 2007
    NJ
  12. toth boer goats

    toth boer goats Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jul 20, 2008
    Corning California
    That is super :clap: :hi5: :greengrin:
     
  13. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Awesome!! That's great news! :D Keep an eye on her hooves though . . . sometimes it can be a week or two before you notice problems
     
  14. cyanne

    cyanne Senior Member

    Really? What, exactly, would cause her to have hoof problems? I am confused.

    :whatgoat:
     
  15. cyanne

    cyanne Senior Member

    Ah, okay, never mind...just found some info on laminitis/founder, so I see now what you were talking about.

    The question is, can they actually founder from eating that small of an amount of weeds and clover? The amount I gave, for about 10 goats was a container about the size of a tall kitchen trashcan (I filled up one of those plastic rubbermaid petfood storage containers than holds about 25 lbs of dogfood) and the weeds were not chopped up or anything, just whole clumps of plants that I had pulled up.

    And the second question, how do you transition them to having access to pasture without causing diarrhea or founder?
     
  16. kornhypknotic

    kornhypknotic New Member

    273
    May 14, 2009
    Waco, TX
    Sorry! :doh: Founder is a really confusing thing! Any sudden change in diet can cause founder (laminitis), but especially a sudden exposure to a high protein or carb diet such as alfalfa, clover, grain, etc. is infamous for founder. I am treating a goat right now who got into a clover patch 4 weeks ago, had green diarrhea for 1 week and now walks on her knees constantly. Early preventative treatment may have helped her significantly, but the owners didn't even think about hoof problems . . . they were primarily concerned with correcting her diarrhea. Once that passed they thought their troubles were over. :GAAH:

    Ah! I just saw your post :D excellent research! I think if the change in diet affected her to the point where she had diarrhea that gave her that much trouble then she has the possibility of developing founder too. Taking a few preventative measures wouldn't hurt.

    As far as transitioning to pasture . . . what I did for my girls was: I would feed them their normal diet first thing in the morning so they would fill up their bellies with whatever food they were used to. Then after their mid-day snooze (before lunch) :sleeping: I would introduce them to their new food for an hour or two. Then for dinner I would offer them their old food again. Slowly, I would increase the time they were exposed to the new food by about 30 minutes to an hour a day. If it looked like their poops were doing just fine and no one got bloated then I would maybe speed up the process. I'd continue it until they were completely on the new diet. The transition usually took about 3-4 days, but I've had some transitions that took as little as 2 days and as long as 1.5 weeks. Usually when we went from crappy Johnson grass summer pastures to premium alfalfa hay was when the transition would be the longest and still I would have girls with runny poop and I'd be punching stomachs all night long :roll: .