Welcome to the forum!
I am sorry you had to deal with urinary calculi, but so glad you got your boy through it.
I have two wethers with my does. All of them (except the milker) live on hay and minerals only. They have not had a problem. I never give them ammonium chloride, but I have it on hand.
I hope someone can answer about Sweetlix Meat Maker being a good choice, but I don’t see why not. It is one of the recommended minerals here.

 

Welcome to the forum! I’m sure that was scary, but so glad you pulled him thru it!
Goats do need good minerals, and if you’re able to feed sweetlix meatmaker, I’d do it.

Pulling sweet feed is going to help your boy out! And the girls don’t really need it either; it’s mostly like candy 🤷🏼‍♀️
for the AC, after you’re done drenching it, I believe it’s a better option to pulse feed it rather than feed it continually. That way their system doesn’t t get accustomed to it.

At 13 weeks, your sweet little guy could have already been up to no good. Nigies can breed at a very young age. Have you had an apron on him or anything?

 

No we have not had aprons on anyone. This is only our third breeding cycle. The first two we only had 2-3 babies each time and only one boy, but it was sold before 12 weeks, so we didn't really think about it. This time we had 7 babies, including a set of triplets and 4 of them are boys. We will have a new pen to separate them built today. I spoke on the phone several times with a Vet at Auburn University and he also recommended pulsing for the same reason you mentioned, but I am doubting I will be able to drench once Ralph gets bigger, he's only 15 lbs right now. We have always just had cattle and two donkeys, but the last few years we added horses, goats and now sheep and I am beyond overwhelmed because they share pastures and pens when we don't have babies in the ground. There is so much more to keeping a goat healthy than I realized and now I'm overwhelmed and scared. I am so grateful to have found this community.

 

Good morning and welcome to TGS. Sorry to hear about the experience with UC, that's scary.

SweetLix Meatmaker 16:8 is an excellent mineral, it's also what I use. Ensuring your male drinks plenty of water each and every day helps keep his system flushed of any small stones before they become too large to easily pass. When the weather starts to stay cool/cold for the season, goats naturally drink less water. I offer electrolyte and/or warm water in a separate bucket from the plain water to encourage my wethers to drink more if needed.

What type of hay are you offering to the goats? Another preventative measure against UC stones is to feed the males an overall diet with a calcium to phosphorus ratio between 2:1 and 2.5:1. Different hay types have different levels of these two nutrients and since hay will be the mainstay of their diet, it's a good place to start with balancing out their diet.

I don't offer Ammonium Chloride to the wethers on a daily basis for several reasons. If needed, I'll add a measured amount to their fresh loose minerals every 6 weeks for 3 days straight. The wethers get fresh loose minerals each morning in an amount they will readily lick up by evening and pulse dosing them this way works well for me.

 

All very good advise!!!!

 

Good morning and welcome to TGS. Sorry to hear about the experience with UC, that's scary.

SweetLix Meatmaker 16:8 is an excellent mineral, it's also what I use. Ensuring your male drinks plenty of water each and every day helps keep his system flushed of any small stones before they become too large to easily pass. When the weather starts to stay cool/cold for the season, goats naturally drink less water. I offer electrolyte and/or warm water in a separate bucket from the plain water to encourage my wethers to drink more if needed.

What type of hay are you offering to the goats? Another preventative measure against UC stones is to feed the males an overall diet with a calcium to phosphorus ratio between 2:1 and 2.5:1. Different hay types have different levels of these two nutrients and since hay will be the mainstay of their diet, it's a good place to start with balancing out their diet.

I don't offer Ammonium Chloride to the wethers on a daily basis for several reasons. If needed, I'll add a measured amount to their fresh loose minerals every 6 weeks for 3 days straight. The wethers get fresh loose minerals each morning in an amount they will readily lick up by evening and pulse dosing them this way works well for me.

Good morning and welcome to TGS. Sorry to hear about the experience with UC, that's scary.

SweetLix Meatmaker 16:8 is an excellent mineral, it's also what I use. Ensuring your male drinks plenty of water each and every day helps keep his system flushed of any small stones before they become too large to easily pass. When the weather starts to stay cool/cold for the season, goats naturally drink less water. I offer electrolyte and/or warm water in a separate bucket from the plain water to encourage my wethers to drink more if needed.

What type of hay are you offering to the goats? Another preventative measure against UC stones is to feed the males an overall diet with a calcium to phosphorus ratio between 2:1 and 2.5:1. Different hay types have different levels of these two nutrients and since hay will be the mainstay of their diet, it's a good place to start with balancing out their diet.

I don't offer Ammonium Chloride to the wethers on a daily basis for several reasons. If needed, I'll add a measured amount to their fresh loose minerals every 6 weeks for 3 days straight. The wethers get fresh loose minerals each morning in an amount they will readily lick up by evening and pulse dosing them this way works well for me.

Well, the momma goats are getting Bahia from our pastures and a few flakes of Bermuda because they have been acting like they're starving since we cut out feed Friday morning. The babies are only getting Bermuda. None of them have ever gotten minerals, because we didn't know. We are checking Tractor Supply later this morning for Meat Maker and will order it if they don't have it in stock.

What about castration? I've read that allowing him to reach puberty is better as far as the urinary system goes. I do not want to do anything to him that stunts growth in that area, but we also don't want what comes along with not being castrated because he is a pet.

 

13 weeks old enough to castrate him. If he can extend his penis, he can breed. Getting him castrated as soon as possible is your best bet. Typically we do it around 12 weeks old.

Since you have sheep sharing a pasture with your goats, you will need to make sure they cannot get to the goat minerals as it is too high in copper for sheep. Goats require a lot of copper but it is toxic to sheep. The sheep will need their own minerals that has less copper in it.

 

13 weeks old enough to castrate him. If he can extend his penis, he can breed. Getting him castrated as soon as possible is your best bet. Typically we do it around 12 weeks old.

Since you have sheep sharing a pasture with your goats, you will need to make sure they cannot get to the goat minerals as it is too high in copper for sheep. Goats require a lot of copper but it is toxic to sheep. The sheep will need their own minerals that has less copper in it.

I learned this last night. Any suggestions?

We are fixing to expand the pen the momma goats and sheep are currently in. We are going to make two pens so we can separate the goats and sheep. My thought process was a month together and a month separated. During the month apart the goats will have meat maker and the month together they will have the mineral safe for sheep. Is this enough to make sure they have enough copper?

We only have 4 mommas. Two of them are black and neither have coat fading, balding etc. The other one is brown, but she was born that color. The fourth one, we have no clue what breed she is, it's not Dwarf Nigerian. She was found on the side of the road, weighed about 10 lbs when she was brought to us.

I am shocked our goats have not run into issues because we have not been doing anything we should have been doing the last 3 years, but we are doing our best to correct that now. Thank you for helping, and everyone else as well. I truly appreciate it.

 

I have heard people who have goats and sheep sharing a pen put goat minerals up high where the goats have to jump onto a platform. I don’t have sheep, so I don’t know how well they can jump, I just remember reading it.
Another option is put out sheep minerals for both species, and give copper boluses to the goats on a regular basis.

 

My baby goats got Meat Maker today, and they tore it up. My momma goats and sheep got a basic mineral that's sheep safe until I figure out something else, just to get them some minerals now, they also tore it up. It made me feel horrible for not knowing to give it to them sooner.

I was reading earlier about copper boluses. We may have to do that until we get a second pen built. Do you have a specific place you order boluses from that you like?

 

Another way to run both sheep and goats minerals together is have a night pen where goats are penned up seperate from sheep. Goat minerals can be in their night pen and just clean it out when the gate opens....keep sheep minerals available for everyone otherwise.

 

For my bucks. I give them 1 scoop of Ammonium Chloride every 2 weeks. Now my bucks are Boers. So for a small guy, ½ teaspoon every other week on his feed. That has kept UC away from my boys.

 

I order my copper boluses on Amazon.
You want to get weights on everyone before administering. 1gram per 22lbs.
I usually bolus every 3 months to keep everyone up, even when feeding a good loose mineral. But my area is very deficient in copper.
Don’t beat yourself up- you can only learn from past mistakes and move forward. We all had to learn at some point 😊

 

Thank you!!!

We have definitely learned from our mistakes. No one around us separates sheep, goats, donkeys etc. Everyone goes in the same pen/pasture, gets the same feed and never seems to have issues, but they may not know what issues actually look like either. My daughter has gotten more animals than we were actually prepared for, so we are playing catch-up now, but we've been very fortunate to have only run into one of our animals having a health problem. I appreciate everyone's input and knowledge so much!!

 

I wouldn’t give any more feed, especially since you don’t feel good about it.
There was a thread on here a while ago where someone quoted a study that showed, even when balanced, grain is not good for males, since it just has so much phosphorus.
Forage pellets are a wonderful thing to give as a treat or lure. I get timothy pellets here.
You could try spraying water and sprinkle AC on them, if you do still want to give that.

 

If you are on well water. You can have that checked for what is in the water.

 

If he is doing better, no you are not naive to think he is getting out of the woods. 😉

 

Are you still currently administering the AC drenches? Have you been watching his urine- has there been significant improvement in his stream?

 

Yes. We did twice a day drenches for 2 days and then dropped it to once a day for 7 days. His last dose will be Sunday afternoon. His urine is great now. Good stream, no straining. The morning my husband dislodged the stone he was back to normal almost instantly. I was able to get a urine specimen on him about 12 hours after the first dose and 48 hours after sweet feed was stopped and the urine pH was 7.2 at that point.

 

Urolithiasis in Ruminants - Urinary System - MSD Veterinary Manual
Urolithiasis in small ruminants (Proceedings) | dvm360

My plan, which I have learned can change in instant, is to pulse him for one week a month with AC.

It would be wise to monitor his urine PH for indications his urine is becoming too acidic if he is going to be dosed that frequently.

Hopefully I will be able to add it to pellets and he won't resist eating it.

What type of pellets is he being fed? AC has an extremely bitter taste. How is he about licking up loose minerals?

 

Urolithiasis in Ruminants - Urinary System - MSD Veterinary Manual
Urolithiasis in small ruminants (Proceedings) | dvm360


It would be wise to monitor his urine PH for indications his urine is becoming too acidic if he is going to be dosed that frequently.

What type of pellets is he being fed? AC has an extremely bitter taste. How is he about licking up loose minerals?

I haven't gotten pellets yet. If we stick with once a month pulsing that will be due November 1st. I'm going to try to find Timothy grass pellets. I did buy a "Goat" feed that has a 2:1 ratio, but our original feed had that as well, so I'm hesitant to try it. Currently I'm drenching with just water, and a tad of Gatorade (the vet recommended Gatorade) but he does not like it. We have to split it into 4-5 doses over a few minutes and feed leaves in between each session.

 

I mix the AC in their loose minerals as well. Goats have this impeccable ability to eat around stuff, even powder. If it is the minerals its not as easy for them to "pick around"

 

I can definitely do this. Do you have a certain ratio of minerals to AC you use?

 

Also, thank you for that link. That actually gives me a little relief because it said most calcium stones are the result of certain plants and grass. I know that isn't absolute, but it does ease my mind a little because they don't have access to the common high calcium culprits like alfalfa and clover.

 

I haven't gotten pellets yet. If we stick with once a month pulsing that will be due November 1st. I'm going to try to find Timothy grass pellets. I did buy a "Goat" feed that has a 2:1 ratio, but our original feed had that as well, so I'm hesitant to try it. Currently I'm drenching with just water, and a tad of Gatorade (the vet recommended Gatorade) but he does not like it. We have to split it into 4-5 doses over a few minutes and feed leaves in between each session.

Is it the taste of Gatorade or the taste of the AC he isn't liking? Seriously, AC tastes worse than a green persimmon.

The babies are only getting Bermuda.

As a substitute for feed, forage pellets could be an alternative source. Bermuda Grass has a cal/pho ratio of approximately 3:1 and Orchard Grass forage pellets at approximately a cal/pho ratio of 1:1 would help lower the ratio down to around 2:1 on the total diet for the buckling and/or any other male goats in the herd.

Orchard grass forage pellets at 1:1 cal/pho ratio would be a better choice to balance out the 3:1 cal/pho ratio of Bermuda Hay. Timothy forage pellets are 2:1 and may not lower the ratio enough.

Also, thank you for that link. That actually gives me a little relief because it said most calcium stones are the result of certain plants and grass. I know that isn't absolute, but it does ease my mind a little because they don't have access to the common high calcium culprits like alfalfa and clover.

UC is mostly considered a nutrional disease cause by either too much calcium OR too much phosphorus in their total diet. There are other contributing factors that were also discussed in the articles. There are more high calcium food sources than clover and alfalfa; Bahia grass can become high in calcium once it seeds up and the tops are being eaten.

 

Is it the taste of Gatorade or the taste of the AC he isn't liking? Seriously, AC tastes worse than a green persimmon.


Orchard grass forage pellets at 1:1 cal/pho ratio would be a better choice to balance out the 3:1 cal/pho ratio of Bermuda Hay. Timothy forage pellets are 2:1 and may not lower the ratio enough.

UC is mostly considered a nutrional disease cause by either too much calcium OR too much phosphorus in their total diet. There are other contributing factors that were also discussed in the articles. There are more high calcium food sources than clover and alfalfa; Bahia grass can become high in calcium once it seeds up and the tops are being eaten.

Ugh, I thought Bermuda was good for them as far as ratio goes, but I can't remember where I read that. He has been tearing up the Bermuda hay, too 🤦🏼‍♀️ They do still have some green grass they nibble on and leaves also fall in their pen, but it's not a significant amount I wouldn't think.

It's the AC he doesn't like. I understand why. I dipped my finger in it when I made his first dose so I knew what I was fixing to ask him to take and it is rough. It burns just as much as it is bitter.

Seriously, how do you guys balance all of this. I have been constantly overwhelmed since last Friday and I'm now wondering if I have no business raising a few goats.

 

Its all still new and overwhelming. We have all been there. We have each had help and tried what has worked for others. And it comes together, and easier to maintain. Once you get them balanced, and learn how to keep that balance, it gets easier.

 

I am so very sorry. 😢

 

I’m so sorry for the loss. I hope your friends are understanding.
would they be of help in identifying any health issues with your herd?
Is your daughter actively involved in the upkeep and care of the animals? I hope she is taking responsibility with them and not just bringing them home for you to manage.

 

She's very involved, but she takes what the previous owners say and she kinda sticks with that because she trusts them. She's more knowledgeable when it comes to chickens and horses. She's been to 4H nutrition classes with those particular animals. We are surrounded by people with goats, all different breeds, and everyone does something different. I like plans, written down plans. I'm a nurse, so it's kind of been hammered into me, but I am also very homeopathic. With goats, they can't verbalize what's wrong, I'm relying on physical symptoms and I'm constantly second guessing myself.

In the three years we've had goats it has been so easy. Healthy mommas, healthy babies. I can't help but think there is something we are missing. We did have a super, super wet spring and first half of summer, but the last two months it has only rained two or three times. Our pastures are already dead. We've been feeding the cows hay since mid September which is a first in the 23 years I've been raising cattle.

 

I am so sorry. It does seem like once one bad thing happens it continues for a while before catching a break.

We have a rule at my house. You do not bring home an animal unless YOU (whoever is bringing home the animal) can afford to care for it. YOU are responsible for all care. That's not to say that we as a family do not help care for said animal, like feeding, watering or just simple daily chores, just whoever buys or brings home the animal is responsible of making sure all it's needs are met on a daily basis. If said animal needs meds or a vet, the buyer/bringerhomer is responsible for those cost.
I had to put that rule in place because my teenage boys would bring any animal home that they could get their hands on but yet I was having to foot the bill for their animals and my own.
I am sorry, I hope I am not coming across as rude or judgmental. I do sympathize with you on the teenagers bringing home animals, this rule has really helped in that regard.

 

We are definitely not taking any more animals in at this point. I have pumped the brakes, hard. I'm all for expanding the farm, that's what she wants to do full time eventually, but not at the same expense of the health of our animals.

She is really good about taking care of her animals, she pays for everything too, unless we pick up the bill without her knowing.

We expanded too quickly, and now we are playing catch-up while trying to make sure no one dies.

You didn't come across as rude at all. I appreciate everyone's knowledge and advice.

 

I am so sorry 😢

 

We are surrounded by people with goats, all different breeds, and everyone does something different.

It is very common that individuals will manage their herds and/or different species in variously different ways. There truly isn't a one size fits all when it comes to animals in general.

We started with 3 momma goats a few years ago, just for fun, because everyone says goats are fun and easy, and they are fun, but not easy. Added a horse we rescued. Now we are temporarily boarding two other horses until their owners can build a barn, have another goat we rescued, 8 baby goats, 2 sheep and 2 donkeys

That's quite a collection of different livestock and I can only imagine the difficulty of staying on top off how to maintain their physical needs, manage the husbandry aspect, address multiple health and nutrition requirements, provide a variety of shelter requirements, plus the pasturing needs and individual spaces for different circumstances, could all become overwhelming and stretch a person thin.

No clue what happened to him, he wasn't "young".

I am very sorry to read about the loss of the male goat and hopefully the owner will be understanding about the news. If a definitive cause of death is needed, a necropsy can sometimes provide answers.

 

It is very common that individuals will manage their herds and/or different species in variously different ways. There truly isn't a one size fits all when it comes to animals in general.

That's quite a collection of different livestock and I can only imagine the difficulty of staying on top off how to maintain their physical needs, manage the husbandry aspect, address multiple health and nutrition requirements, provide a variety of shelter requirements, plus the pasturing needs and individual spaces for different circumstances, could all become overwhelming and stretch a person thin.

I am very sorry to read about the loss of the male goat and hopefully the owner will be understanding about the news. If a definitive cause of death is needed, a necropsy can sometimes provide answers.

It is quite the collection isn't it. We have a lot of pen and shelter construction in our future.